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"Linux switch saved city millions and reduced user complaints"

computerworlduk.com

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Re: "Linux switch saved city millions and reduced user complaints"

#121

Post by flomo »

viandante wrote: post #36
doktrin wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. The FOSS office tools are simply not in the same class as Microsoft Office. Anyone who has worked extensively with Excel will acknowledge there really is no true competitor out there. Frankly, I would go so far as to say that a Linux desktop OS is really only appropriate for enthusiasts or those with minimal needs (e.g. email). For just about anyone else, there is simply too much potential hassle involved in…

Frankly, I would say just the opposite. If your needs are minimal, go with windows. If you need more, linux is a good choice. You will never get a decent terminal in windows or good support for some programming languages (such as python). You are right with Excel although. However, much of the "power" of Excel is really just needed because people are overusing it. Stop making "databases" out of Excel sheets and imple…

> Stop making "databases" out of Excel sheets and implement good data analytics system on the server

Note this is largely procedural. Employee can play with a spreadsheet 'for free', but a database requires finding budget for Business Analyst, DBA, Java Programmer, etc.

In many cases, Excel or Access functions as the prototyping tool for the ultimate real application.

Re: "Linux switch saved city millions and reduced user complaints"

#122

Post by buster »

efuquen wrote: post #95
edwinnathaniel wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's good for them that they haven't caught the "SharePoint" (and soon, InfoPath) wave yet cause if they do, the migration cost will rise quite significantly. Most offices these days do use SharePoint heavily and some of the BAs started their hands on InfoPath to make forms for data entry to SharePoint. To make matter worse (or sweeter, depending your POV), these whole thing can be acquired cheaper by using Office 36…

"For example: in the K-12 sector, I heard schools are getting 90% discounts. Ninety percent discounts....." That makes plenty of a sense. If you force people to use Microsoft products while they're young they are much less liable to switch to another platform while they're older. They're use to their tools and people are lazy. So heavily subsidizing educational uses of software makes plenty of sense. God forbid we ev…

Same with the MSDNAA project. As a student i was able to download almost every software from MS for free (even Enterprise versions, etc.). Since many people start to learn coding in university, you catch them with Visual Studio, perfect timing..

Re: "Linux switch saved city millions and reduced user complaints"

#123

Post by Xylakant »

tzs wrote: post #98

Have they actually saved anything when you take into account nearly a decade (so far) spent on doing this migration? The Munich migration is pretty much the canonical example of how to botch a Linux migration.

The original document has the hard facts: Until 2011 they spent 11.7 Mio Euros on the migration and another 2.08 Mio Euros on workflow optimizations that they tackled at the same time. The calculated cost for a migration of the Windows NT environment to a newer windows version including support and the same workflow optimizations are at 15.52 Mio euros. That's a saving of 1.74 Mio Euros or roughly 11.2%. This is taking into account that most migration costs now have been paid, and savings will subsequently will rise. They also have anecdotical evidence that error rates and ongoing support costs have dropped. It's certainly anything but a canonical example for a botched project.

Re: "Linux switch saved city millions and reduced user complaints"

#124

Post by Xylakant »

VMG wrote: post #113
Splines wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only problem so far is - once a year they need to use free windows-only application, that doesn't run in WINE, to calculate taxes. They just go to neighborns for a few hours. If you're in the US, I've been using the web app tax software and it's been great. Nothing to install locally and my progress is always saved. Maybe not for you if you are in a complex tax situation, but if your life is simple doing it onl…

Just a random thought: as a German I have the impression that people here would be much too paranoid to do something like that over the internet, even with SSL.

The German variant is aptly called "Elster" and while it uses ssl it lacks authentication. I could file a bogus tax return for you if I know your tax number. It's also mandatory for businesses when you need to file a VAT statement. Oh, and last time I checked, the client software required windows - there's a less comfortable online version though.

Re: "Linux switch saved city millions and reduced user complaints"

#125

Post by Xylakant »

flomo wrote: post #115
mattbriggs wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, if you read that site you'll see that the Munich switch was really mismanaged and underestimated. This press release sounds more like pr spin then anything, since they we supposed to be done a very long time ago

My understanding is that Munich had a lot of issues which were orthogonal to Linux - decentralized support, lack of inventory, lack of standards. Of course, it didn't help that the original proponents were of an 'ideological' bent and perhaps bit off more than they could chew. Either way, a 9 year IT project is really dismal.

There's some misunderstanding here. The migration did not take 9 years. The project itself started in 2003 but was put on hold in 2004 or 2005 due to the legal worries surrounding Linux and software patents. It was resumed after some decision of the European high court. Still, the first years up to 2006 were spent on evaluation and planning and political board games.

Measuring the success of an IT project in years is wrong in any case. Success is defined in meeting your goals at the required time. Munich is a little late and they have had their own share of issues and roadblocks, but all in all they met their goals. Considering that this was the first large scale migration of a city administration in germany, that's not dismal.

Re: "Linux switch saved city millions and reduced user complaints"

#126

Post by flomo »

Xylakant wrote: post #125
flomo wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that Munich had a lot of issues which were orthogonal to Linux - decentralized support, lack of inventory, lack of standards. Of course, it didn't help that the original proponents were of an 'ideological' bent and perhaps bit off more than they could chew. Either way, a 9 year IT project is really dismal.

There's some misunderstanding here. The migration did not take 9 years. The project itself started in 2003 but was put on hold in 2004 or 2005 due to the legal worries surrounding Linux and software patents. It was resumed after some decision of the European high court. Still, the first years up to 2006 were spent on evaluation and planning and political board games. Measuring the success of an IT project in years is…

In 2003, Munich publicly gave the finger to Steve Ballmer himself and declared they were moving to Linux. If they really needed 3 years to think about it, perhaps their PR was all wrong, because all eyes were now on them as the Linux test case.

And perhaps you would work through this sort of multiyear migration plan, but I certainly wouldn't. From what I can tell the project was driven by feel-goodisms and not at all properly scoped.

Re: "Linux switch saved city millions and reduced user complaints"

#127

Post by viandante »

edwinnathaniel wrote: post #102
viandante wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SharePoint is what happens when you force a paradigm (the idea of files) to the limit of good sense. Why do we need Excel sheets lying around in SharePoint? Why not just a decent web interface connected with the databases (external and internal)? I just today discussed with my boss a proposal from some finance guys of a "dashboard" in power point that will take half day to be manually updated every month. Come on...…

Hang on... WAT?! SharePoint is a CMS mixed with Document Management Systems with a sprinkle of Workflows plus a platform for small (but limited features) web-apps. Some companies chose SharePoint because of the features and the idea of avoiding "NIH" or writing web-apps from scratch. I think this is where the "hackers" (or geeks, whatever, hackers aren't hackers anymore these days) mindset don't jelled well with inte…

What features of excel? I work with Excel everyday (I'm a finance, not a hacker) and I can't really see what features, besides filters and pivots, you may want to implement in an app. The best piece of software I worked with is "Hyperion", which great just because limits the "Excel power" so that nobody feels entitled to creativity every time there is report to do.

Didn't know of the web apps in SP, would like to see some examples although, don't trust it just yet...

Re: "Linux switch saved city millions and reduced user complaints"

#128

Post by DrStalker »

Uchikoma wrote: post #32
mjwalshe wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And much more expensive :-) and if you want 100% Office comapatability for work by a PC.

Could you show how a DELL or HP is much cheaper? I did a calculation in 2006, comparing a Lenovo T60p to a MacBook Pro, it was roughly the same. Things did not change since then to my knowledge. http://codemonkeyism.com/the-recent-lenovo-vs-apple-discussi...

A PC of equivalent power and build quality has a roughly similar cost to a mac.

If you're willing to cut back on the quality and capabilities there are very cheap PC options, but no very cheap Mac options. For someone who just wants to browse the web and edit occasional documents there is a lot of cutting back that can be down.

Re: "Linux switch saved city millions and reduced user complaints"

#129

Post by DrStalker »

Xylakant wrote: post #123
tzs wrote: post #98

Have they actually saved anything when you take into account nearly a decade (so far) spent on doing this migration? The Munich migration is pretty much the canonical example of how to botch a Linux migration.

The original document has the hard facts: Until 2011 they spent 11.7 Mio Euros on the migration and another 2.08 Mio Euros on workflow optimizations that they tackled at the same time. The calculated cost for a migration of the Windows NT environment to a newer windows version including support and the same workflow optimizations are at 15.52 Mio euros. That's a saving of 1.74 Mio Euros or roughly 11.2%. This is taki…

That's a saving of 11.2% comparing an actual cost to an estimated cost; if the estimated cost blew out (which seems to happen a lot in migrations) then the savings could be even bigger.

Re: "Linux switch saved city millions and reduced user complaints"

#130

Post by daniel_solano »

edwinnathaniel wrote: post #64
cs702 wrote: post #54

Doubtlessly, this successful migration to desktop Linux must have been very difficult, costly, and disruptive. The upfront costs of migration surely exceed what it would have cost the city to stay on Windows for one or two more waves of upgrades. The important question is: were these upfront costs & multi-year effort worth it? The data presented in the article provides compelling evidence that the answer is yes -- i.…

It's good for them that they haven't caught the "SharePoint" (and soon, InfoPath) wave yet cause if they do, the migration cost will rise quite significantly. Most offices these days do use SharePoint heavily and some of the BAs started their hands on InfoPath to make forms for data entry to SharePoint. To make matter worse (or sweeter, depending your POV), these whole thing can be acquired cheaper by using Office 36…

For example: in the K-12 sector, I heard schools are getting 90% discounts. Ninety percent discounts.....

If I recall correctly, according to the director of IT of a large, local non-profit, they get access to the full suite of enterprise Microsoft products for something on the range of $1000 per year.

At that price point, saying 'open source can save you money' is meaningless, because they have already made investments in Microsoft IT expertise.

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