"Linux switch saved city millions and reduced user complaints" • Hacker News Board

Re: "Linux switch saved city millions and reduced user complaints"

#101

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Apr 02, 2012, 7:35 PM UTC

Uchikoma wrote: post #59

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't a matter of comparing like for like; that isn't the problem. The problem is that the single cheapest Mac laptop is $1000. If all you're doing is web and email, you may not need a Core i5 or SSD. You can get a PC laptop which is more than fast enough for Mom usage for less than half that price, especially if you put Ubuntu on it and don't have to run antivirus.

"It isn't a matter of comparing like for like; that isn't the problem." Never heard that in a discussion. I thought it was all about comparing like to like. The OP didn't say "for reading emails". Especially as he gave the example of 100% Office compatibility (Office 2011?). Or you could compare live time value. I've broken several Thinkpads in a small amount of time, my wife uses a MacBook for more than 5 years with…

[deleted]

Re: "Linux switch saved city millions and reduced user complaints"

#102

Post by edwinnathaniel » Mon, Apr 02, 2012, 8:44 PM UTC

viandante wrote: post #96

edwinnathaniel wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you completely ignoring SharePoint integration with Office?

SharePoint is what happens when you force a paradigm (the idea of files) to the limit of good sense. Why do we need Excel sheets lying around in SharePoint? Why not just a decent web interface connected with the databases (external and internal)? I just today discussed with my boss a proposal from some finance guys of a "dashboard" in power point that will take half day to be manually updated every month. Come on...…

Hang on...

WAT?!

SharePoint is a CMS mixed with Document Management Systems with a sprinkle of Workflows plus a platform for small (but limited features) web-apps.

Some companies chose SharePoint because of the features and the idea of avoiding "NIH" or writing web-apps from scratch.

I think this is where the "hackers" (or geeks, whatever, hackers aren't hackers anymore these days) mindset don't jelled well with internal IT systems: we all want to develop something from scratch the way we want it, the way we know, the way we hope it will be.

Once your users are asking features of Excel to be implemented in your web-apps that use Ext-JS GRID as front-end you'll know what you're signing for...(and at that point pulling a 37signals makes you look...let's just say less useful...)

Re: "Linux switch saved city millions and reduced user complaints"

#103

Post by Splines » Mon, Apr 02, 2012, 8:46 PM UTC

ajuc wrote: post #11

vibrunazo wrote: post #4

On a parallel anecdote. Installing Ubuntu on my parents PC sure did reduce the amount of assistance they needed from me with crashes and malware. I'd recommend it to anyone who needs to spend some time helping non-tech friends with computer problems :)

My parents use my old PC with Athlon 2000 and 512 MB RAM, I've instaled last Kubuntu with KDE 3.5 a few years ago, and never needed to touch it since then :) The only problem so far is - once a year they need to use free windows-only application, that doesn't run in WINE, to calculate taxes. They just go to neighborns for a few hours. My sister also has Kubuntu on her laptop, but she knows how to update it, so I don'…

> The only problem so far is - once a year they need to use free windows-only application, that doesn't run in WINE, to calculate taxes. They just go to neighborns for a few hours.

If you're in the US, I've been using the web app tax software and it's been great. Nothing to install locally and my progress is always saved. Maybe not for you if you are in a complex tax situation, but if your life is simple doing it online is incredibly easy.

Re: "Linux switch saved city millions and reduced user complaints"

#104

Post by edwinnathaniel » Mon, Apr 02, 2012, 8:46 PM UTC

rbanffy wrote: post #90

edwinnathaniel wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's good for them that they haven't caught the "SharePoint" (and soon, InfoPath) wave yet cause if they do, the migration cost will rise quite significantly. Most offices these days do use SharePoint heavily and some of the BAs started their hands on InfoPath to make forms for data entry to SharePoint. To make matter worse (or sweeter, depending your POV), these whole thing can be acquired cheaper by using Office 36…

> It's good for them that they haven't caught the "SharePoint" (and soon, InfoPath) wave yet cause if they do, the migration cost will rise quite significantly. You must not forget to factor in the huge pain of living with SharePoint. A good friend of mine, heavy Microsoft user (and advocate) regularly complains about downtime and data loss because of their SharePoint install. They were forced into it because Microso…

Most of our clients are using SharePoint and while I'm not working in SP-related projects, I have not heard complains from them regarding downtimes or data loss so far. In fact, they're all happy using SharePoint.

I can't comment on that particular issue.

Re: "Linux switch saved city millions and reduced user complaints"

#105

Post by eropple » Mon, Apr 02, 2012, 8:48 PM UTC

ccozan wrote: post #51

fleitz wrote: post #41

They moved from Windows NT to Linux in 2006 . No wonder it reduced complaints. I'd be far more interested in a migration from Win 7 or Win XP to Linux.

I think the main reason was independence from vendors - since they were based on NT and Microsoft just pulled the support - ouch!, not necessarily nicety or features of a desktop. The whole infrastructure was changed and not just some frontend.

Microsoft didn't "just pull support" from NT. The lifecycle was pretty well defined.

Re: "Linux switch saved city millions and reduced user complaints"

#106

Post by Splines » Mon, Apr 02, 2012, 8:50 PM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #76

wccrawford wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your boss had a good point. At some point, users become savvy to the whole thing and stop complaining and start trying to fix it on their own. It starts with 'Bobby in accounting told me to X when Y happens' and snowballs from there. It's horrible on productivity and when IT finally does try to fix it, it's often much, much worse. (Though, when the user gets it right, IT doesn't have to fix it after all.) It's also h…

Or they will stop using the system altogether and that's when you start having these unofficial shadow systems spring up, developed by someone who read Access For Dummies in 7 Days, and next thing you know you've got 250,000 credit card numbers posted on pastebin.

You take the good with the bad. This is one of the markets that startups can serve.

Re: "Linux switch saved city millions and reduced user complaints"

#107

Post by Splines » Mon, Apr 02, 2012, 8:54 PM UTC

rbanffy wrote: post #88

excerionsforte wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When speaking from your experience its easy to say 'many' users have had problems, just like how I can say I've never had a problem with a word document therefore 'many' users have never had a problem with a word document. :) Not sure what kind of editing you do. haha

Most are documents with inserted pictures, pieces of spreadsheets, Visio and Project charts. Insertion and deletion of the non-text elements appeared to significantly increase the chances of creating unreadable documents. Workarounds includes saving under different formats and removing history. I am counting my own problems as well as my closest coworkers. As with Outlook's PSTs, there were no apparent cause for the…

I work at Microsoft on the Word team. If you have a problem with a Word document, shoot me an email (it's in my profile) and I'll see what I can do.

Re: "Linux switch saved city millions and reduced user complaints"

#108

Post by hahainternet » Mon, Apr 02, 2012, 9:14 PM UTC

keithpeter wrote: post #18

Disclaimer: I'm not a programmer and have been a bystander in medium sized IT projects. Does anyone think that large organisations will tend to move to Web-browser based business applications over the next few years? If so, will that make it easier to switch the client device without major change in the central plumbing?

Even in small organisations, at least two projects I have now been involved with have been migrating legacy desktop applications to rich HTML/XUL websites. It's definitely where the smart money is in terms of accessibility.

Re: "Linux switch saved city millions and reduced user complaints"

#109

Post by hikarudo » Mon, Apr 02, 2012, 9:36 PM UTC

efuquen wrote: post #95

edwinnathaniel wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's good for them that they haven't caught the "SharePoint" (and soon, InfoPath) wave yet cause if they do, the migration cost will rise quite significantly. Most offices these days do use SharePoint heavily and some of the BAs started their hands on InfoPath to make forms for data entry to SharePoint. To make matter worse (or sweeter, depending your POV), these whole thing can be acquired cheaper by using Office 36…

"For example: in the K-12 sector, I heard schools are getting 90% discounts. Ninety percent discounts....." That makes plenty of a sense. If you force people to use Microsoft products while they're young they are much less liable to switch to another platform while they're older. They're use to their tools and people are lazy. So heavily subsidizing educational uses of software makes plenty of sense. God forbid we ev…

"Forcing kids to learn how to code" is a sure way to make them hate coding. But I'm sure you meant "encouraged" instead of "forced".

Re: "Linux switch saved city millions and reduced user complaints"

#110

Post by Xylakant » Mon, Apr 02, 2012, 9:38 PM UTC

eropple wrote: post #105

ccozan wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the main reason was independence from vendors - since they were based on NT and Microsoft just pulled the support - ouch!, not necessarily nicety or features of a desktop. The whole infrastructure was changed and not just some frontend.

Microsoft didn't "just pull support" from NT. The lifecycle was pretty well defined.

"Pulled support" may be a bit hyperbolic, still, microsofts announcement to EOL Windows NT was a major point in the decision making. There's an interesting detailed document here http://joinup.ec.europa.eu/software/studies/declaration-inde... that talks about this and other aspects of the Limux project.

> Until 2003, the city was using Microsoft Windows NT 4 across the board, and was by and large satisfied. When Microsoft decided to end the support for this operating system, this meant that hardware and important procedures would eventually stop working. “It was from this experience of being totally at the mercy of an external party that we wanted to take the road to more independence”, Schießl (ed. the deputy project manager) says.

So having seen the effect of a vendor lock-in, the conscious decision was made to move to an environment where vendor lock-in can be avoided. It may take considerable effort to support a linux distribution after its official EOL but it certainly can be done - unlike any other closed-source OS.