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Do You Need a Visit to the Confident Man Ranch?

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Re: Do You Need a Visit to the Confident Man Ranch?

#31

Post by oldpersonintx »

63 wrote: post #15
doesnt_know wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> could be solved if every guy had a genuine platonic friend who is a girl. No data point other than every guy that I know who has close friend girls, never had problems with masculinity or something. And the opposite is true as well. Feels more probable that it's the other way around. Those that don't have problems with their (toxic) masculinity can likely maintain platonic relationships with any gender.

I'll take the middle ground and say I think it's more of a vicious cycle. Grow up in a dysfunctional environment and develop a bad concept of other people and of masculinity and it becomes harder and harder to break out of that as you age. Eventually someone has to do a lot of emotional work to support you while you figure out how to treat other people and yourself. A lot of times I think if it's caught early by some…

> I don't know how to fix it though

Here's a start: don't simultaneously pulverize young men with progressive dogma that vilifies them while simultaneously desensitizing them to violence

Re: Do You Need a Visit to the Confident Man Ranch?

#32

Post by oldpersonintx »

PlunderBunny wrote: post #4

The smartest thing I read about the question "What does it mean to be a good man?" was that the question was wrong - it should simply be "What does it mean to be a good human being?" In my opinion, it's a much easier question to answer.

Stripping men of their unique identity does not help...this is known as "leveling"

Re: Do You Need a Visit to the Confident Man Ranch?

#33

Post by germinalphrase »

oldpersonintx wrote: post #31
63 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll take the middle ground and say I think it's more of a vicious cycle. Grow up in a dysfunctional environment and develop a bad concept of other people and of masculinity and it becomes harder and harder to break out of that as you age. Eventually someone has to do a lot of emotional work to support you while you figure out how to treat other people and yourself. A lot of times I think if it's caught early by some…

> I don't know how to fix it though Here's a start: don't simultaneously pulverize young men with progressive dogma that vilifies them while simultaneously desensitizing them to violence

I grew up in a small, Midwestern town. Distinctly conservative. These same problems existed despite there being a more direct, simple conception of masculinity (and violence was, if anything, more normalized). Your position is a contemporary cultural lightning rod, but I’m not immediately convinced.

Re: Do You Need a Visit to the Confident Man Ranch?

#34

Post by germinalphrase »

mnky9800n wrote: post #20
fullmoon wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all you need is someone to talk with, there is no difference.

then why pay someone to talk as opposed to going to the pub with your friend?

Because your friend may be too close to your problems to be of help, may not speak with candor to avoid harming you/your relationship, may be an active participant in your problem, may have no experience talking/thinking about your problem limiting their ability to offer useful feedback…

Without even broaching the diagnosis and treatment of mental health conditions, there are any number of reasons why paying a neutral third party to discuss your problems could be preferable than talking to a friend at a bar. Nor are they mutually exclusive.

Re: Do You Need a Visit to the Confident Man Ranch?

#35

Post by codeulike »

mnky9800n wrote: post #20
fullmoon wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all you need is someone to talk with, there is no difference.

then why pay someone to talk as opposed to going to the pub with your friend?

Talking to anyone is pretty good, so you're not far wrong.

A counsellor or therapist has training - think of it as a mental toolkit - to help explore things with you. Depends on their exact approach but most of them wont give advice for example, they will just ask question or reflect what you say back to you to encourage you to figure it out yourself. Or they might look for parallels between your early life and current life, as most people follow repeated patterns in their relationships (or so the theory goes). At least 75% of their skillset is just listening and occasionally asking good questions which is an underrated skill.

There are many different flavours of therapy/psychotherapy/counselling and sometimes the adherents get quite religious about it (ask an integrative therapist what they think of CBT for example). But research generally shows that most 'talking therapies' are roughly equal in effectiveness and the main factor for success is the relationship between the client and therapist - i.e. whether they click. (putting aside for the moment the tricky questions about how to measure effectiveness of therapy - what does improvement look like? how do you have a control group?)

There's a thing called the 'Dodo Hypothesis' - that "all empirically validated psychotherapies, regardless of their specific components, produce equivalent outcomes" - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo_bird_verdict

People heavily invested in a particular brand of therapy dont like to hear about the Dodo Hypothesis but broadly I think its an optimistic conclusion - talking to people helps, and if you find the right one, talking to a specially trained listener can help more.

Re: Do You Need a Visit to the Confident Man Ranch?

#36

Post by sethammons »

kredd wrote: post #8

My friend and I have a theory that a significant chunk of the problems mentioned in the article could be solved if every guy had a genuine platonic friend who is a girl. No data point other than every guy that I know who has close friend girls, never had problems with masculinity or something. And the opposite is true as well. I might be in a very limited bubble as well, as my very close bubble of decade+ friend grou…

Take up basketball to get taller.

Re: Do You Need a Visit to the Confident Man Ranch?

#37

Post by ddmf »

kredd wrote: post #8

My friend and I have a theory that a significant chunk of the problems mentioned in the article could be solved if every guy had a genuine platonic friend who is a girl. No data point other than every guy that I know who has close friend girls, never had problems with masculinity or something. And the opposite is true as well. I might be in a very limited bubble as well, as my very close bubble of decade+ friend grou…

I wasn't allowed women pals when I was with my wife, she saw them as competition, and I didn't have many growing up.

Since separating - I've met a few wonderful women who I'm still in touch with - one is my "bestie" for sure and we meet up to eat, I'll go round and play with her kids too.

My daughter and I are really close too - we go food shopping once a week, have done since lockdown, and it's amazing how much deeper conversations can go when your mind is concentrating on menial tasks.

I definitely feel more well rounded as a man these days, and it's not just age related, it's definitely helped me having women friends.

Re: Do You Need a Visit to the Confident Man Ranch?

#38

Post by andyjohnson0 »

kredd wrote: post #24
andyjohnson0 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My friend and I have a theory that a significant chunk of the problems mentioned in the article could be solved if every guy had a genuine platonic friend who is a girl. I suspect that the causation might be reversed. In other words, men who women want to be friends with may have the personality attributes that allow them to express their masculinity in non-problematic and easeful ways.

I don’t buy that given I went to middle/high school in very backward-ass region, but we all managed to be friends. It’s something that needs to be cultivated from the early childhood. I agree that it is much harder to reinforce it later in life. Again, not a lot of data points, just a few looking at my other friends with no female friends. And the way my nephews are growing up and talking about girls in their pre-tee…

Quite a lot of resort to anecdote there, tbh.

I guess I was thinking of adult platonic relationships, not those of children. As a parent I've seen that school is something of a special case: kids grow up together in a pre-existing school community, with some necessity to get along, and with adults (ie teachers) on hand to enforce rules. Quite different to the environment that most adults exist in.

I do agree on the necessity to cultivate friendship skills between sexes though.

Re: Do You Need a Visit to the Confident Man Ranch?

#39

Post by marginalia_nu »

PlunderBunny wrote: post #4

The smartest thing I read about the question "What does it mean to be a good man?" was that the question was wrong - it should simply be "What does it mean to be a good human being?" In my opinion, it's a much easier question to answer.

I think that misses the point a bit. It's an easier question, but it's also a different question. It's often easier to answer a question that glosses over the situational nuances.

Whatever your circumstances, whether you're a man, woman, something else; some of that is a given. It's not just who you are or who you chose to be, but the expectations and opportunities made available to us based on who we appear to be.

It is a relevant question to ask what is the best way of playing the hand you were dealt by circumstance.

Re: Do You Need a Visit to the Confident Man Ranch?

#40

Post by jgilias »

kredd wrote: post #8

My friend and I have a theory that a significant chunk of the problems mentioned in the article could be solved if every guy had a genuine platonic friend who is a girl. No data point other than every guy that I know who has close friend girls, never had problems with masculinity or something. And the opposite is true as well. I might be in a very limited bubble as well, as my very close bubble of decade+ friend grou…

It’s good to appreciate that people can be really different. For me your suggestion is a catch-22. For me to have a _close_ friendship with someone I need to like them a lot. But knowing myself, if I like someone a lot I _will_ fall in love. As in, this has happened and not once.

My wife on the other hand is a direct opposite of that. From having discussed past relationships, I don’t think she even knows what falling for someone the way I tend(ed) to do even feels like. I know that she loves me dearly, but that’s the kind of slow-burning long-term kind of love.

So, thanks, but no thanks. Following your advice would wreck my life.

Not that I have any problem with masculinity though. I doubt anyone sees me as super masculine to begin with.

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