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Mastercard Should Stop Selling Our Data

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Re: Mastercard Should Stop Selling Our Data

#241

Post by thephyber »

bippihippi1 wrote: post #135
thephyber wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of the big 4 networks in the US don’t sell data. Best to opt-out of each that you use.

source?

A 5 second search on Google shows Reddit r/privacy has threads for each of {AMEX, Visa, Mastercard, Discover} opt-out of marketing links.

I would argue that data brokers are so prolific in the transactions processing space that we should assume the onus is flipped and assume all companies are doing it until they can prove they aren’t (which is a pretty difficult task).

I also realize that other countries/governments regulate this space differently, so I’m speaking specifically about the USA.

Re: Mastercard Should Stop Selling Our Data

#242

Post by pornel »

izacus wrote: post #205
Lutger wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the whole world, this is mostly in the United States. In Europe its more like what you describe, banks are the card payment provider and we have (near) instant online transfers. Credit cards are relatively unimportant here.

What are you going on about? Pretty much all European banks issue Visa/Mastercard credit and debit cards (sometimes under their subbrands Maestro and VPay) by default to pretty much all customers. Most in-store payment processing goes directly over those two companies still.

Interchange fees are regulated in Europe. This prevents this weird inflation of card fees which are then returned via cashbacks.

Re: Mastercard Should Stop Selling Our Data

#243

Post by lxgr »

wayfinder wrote: post #165
lxgr wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the company that now owns Diners Club (and is better known under that name in many countries other than the US), who in turn invented credit cards way back :)

They did not invent credit cards. Diners Club was a charge card. They did not invent that either. American Airlines had their own charge card a few decades before. They did start the first payment card that wasn’t linked to a specific company (i.e. the American Airlines card).

The invention was having a card accepted across a wide range of merchants (all under different ownership).

Store accounts/cards have indeed been around significantly longer.

The distinction between a credit and a charge card is not that relevant in that context, in my view: For both, you spend an issuer’s money at unaffiliated merchants and pay the issuer back later.

Re: Mastercard Should Stop Selling Our Data

#244

Post by s3p »

bArray wrote: post #200
nologic01 wrote: post #153

Imagine you go to a market notorious for haggling and the company that sold you your wallet monitors all your transactions and reports them to whomever of the market sellers pays most. You are now the fat chicken, ready to be plucked: You just bought a hammer, now you need nails. From your social media trail sellers can also infer you are somewhat of a dimwit. Hurry, nails are in high demand in your area. But no worr…

Better yet, they now have those e-ink price labels. They could literally update as you walk towards them to show the price they will sell to you. If you walk off and don't pick something up, they could then change the offer a little. It's no longer '2 for 1', it's now '3 for 2 with a free X'. Disgusting. > I just can't understand how people have come to accept such erosion of their privacy, ultimately their very own…

Who has these labels? And if they did, how would they enforce it? How would a checkout counter know what price you were offered by some random computer sitting on a shelf?

Re: Mastercard Should Stop Selling Our Data

#245

Post by wayfinder »

lxgr wrote: post #224
wayfinder wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It probably has nothing to do with getting the car back. It’s probably to avoid lending the car to higher risk demographics. It’s a test. The rental car company basically loses fewer cars overall and thus has lower insurance premiums, and thus can offer cars cheaper than other rental companies that do not require a credit card (if any even still exist?) that have higher premiums to pay.

That’s the most likely theory as far as I can tell: While a credit card doesn’t make it more likely to get the money back in case the customer does run away with the car, it’s probably less likely for high-risk customers to even have a credit card. Which unfortunately creates all kinds of false-positives, like making it very hard for tourists from countries where credit cards are not commonly used to rent a car…

It does but I assume the loss of business from foreign customers still is less than the cost of losing cars.

That said, you’d think they’ve considered exceptions based on your passport?

Re: Mastercard Should Stop Selling Our Data

#246

Post by autoexec »

s3p wrote: post #244
bArray wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better yet, they now have those e-ink price labels. They could literally update as you walk towards them to show the price they will sell to you. If you walk off and don't pick something up, they could then change the offer a little. It's no longer '2 for 1', it's now '3 for 2 with a free X'. Disgusting. > I just can't understand how people have come to accept such erosion of their privacy, ultimately their very own…

Who has these labels? And if they did, how would they enforce it? How would a checkout counter know what price you were offered by some random computer sitting on a shelf?

It's been being tested in retail already (see for example: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057/s41272-019-00224-3) and the main thing holding stores back from implementing it is that most people think discriminatory pricing is wrong. Companies are working very hard to convince us to let them do it though. Their foot in the door is offering "deals" to only certain people. You see this in things like store loyalty cards or Xbox's "just for you" prices (https://www.windowscentral.com/xbox-microsoft-store-just-for...). It's all just trying to condition us to accept that some people deserve different prices/treatment than other people.

If I were building this type of system I'd do away with electronic labels and just force people to scan a QR code with their cell phones, then use that data collected from their device to find out their income level, past purchase history, etc. then use that data to display their "price" (subject to change at any moment) right on their device along with ingredients, nutritional data, product information, ads, etc. Then I'd either generate a QR code on their device for them to scan at self-checkout, use Bluetooth to detect the device when they stood at the checkout counter, or use facial recognition. Either way, knowing what price the computer offered would be dead simple and the price of whatever is being purchased could (and probably would) change from the time you picked it off of the shelf and when it got scanned at the register. I'd be your responsibility to accept the prices or not when you pay.

Re: Mastercard Should Stop Selling Our Data

#247

Post by tiffanyh »

kylehotchkiss wrote: post #72
asciii wrote: post #28

I wonder how this impacts Apple Card (via GS) and knowing Apple's whole privacy focus

“but do not share or sell your transaction information to third parties for marketing or advertising.” The wording only says they can’t share or sell transactions for those two reasons but I’d imagine analytics may be a valid reason?

Fraud analytics gets an exception from most regulator laws.

Re: Mastercard Should Stop Selling Our Data

#248

Post by kalleboo »

fiddlerwoaroof wrote: post #138
owenmarshall wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IME, it’s less about POS systems and more about what the merchants are willing to give up in fees. Amex charges significantly more than the others, to the point that multiple businesses I frequent offer a sliding scale - par for cash/check, +2-5% for Visa/Mastercard/Discover, +5%+ for Amex. This is just one more input to an optimization problem for me, but for merchants makes a significant difference: my mechanic say…

Well, I’ve noticed businesses switch to accepting Amex when they got one of the newer POS systems. I wonder if Square/Clover/etc. have negotiated different rates for their customers.

I think Square has a flat fee no matter what card. They probably just average out the fees between the cards.

Re: Mastercard Should Stop Selling Our Data

#249

Post by kalleboo »

reactordev wrote: post #11
wkat4242 wrote: post #5

We should have a payment system that isn't held hostage by two providers anyway. At least here in Europe MasterCard and visa are the only options. Amex and Discovery are really unusable here. Besides selling our data this also means we get American morals pushed on us, eg they won't provide payments for some websites they don't like. But how do you break up such a duopoly?

You start an EU competing service with the top EU banks and money lenders. You build a bunch of credit card infrastructure. You tie your infrastructure to the merchant systems and get gateways to implement your protocol. Not exactly easy but it’s not impossible. An app based system could probably do it and force ApplePay and GooglePay to use it in those areas. They will if it’s in place.

Here in Japan, the run-around the system has been QR code payments.

Those apps are easy to make and don't have to get any special system access to NFC hardware.

Small merchants can just use their existing phones or get iPads, although the payments are now also integrated into merchant systems and the standard card readers in shops now also have a camera to scan QR codes.

Re: Mastercard Should Stop Selling Our Data

#250

Post by em500 »

BrandonS113 wrote: post #237
em500 wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are the transaction costs for a retailer at the largest Dutch bank: - Maestro, V PAY, Debit Mastercard en VISA Debit issued in Europe: €0.047-€0.06 per transaction - iDEAL: €0.35 - Mastercard en VISA creditcards issued in Europe: 1.70% - Mastercard en VISA creditcards and debitcards issued outside of Europe: 2.50% https://www.ing.nl/zakelijk/betalen/tarieven/betalingen-binn... For a €100 payment, we're looking a…

I have European debit cards. They get rejected in many Albert Heijn when Dutch cards (debit and credit) are taken. Jumbo takes foreign cards. Jumbo gets my (and a lot of my colleagues who pass though) business, AH not. Many restaurants take Dutch credit cards and not non-Dutch European credit cards. I went to a restaurant that takes Bitcoin but not EU debit (and Bitcoin transactions costs are much higher) So if the f…

There is no such thing as a generic "European debit card". Dutch retailers accept specifically only Maestro, VPay, MasterCard Debit or VISA debit cards, but usually not not VISA Electron, or various other other country-specific European debit cards like Bancontact or giropay or EC. Albert Heijn (except in a few stores in Amsterdam and Schiphol) doesn't accept any credit cards and does not distinguish between domestic or foreign. It's a matter of costs, not xenophobia.

Retailers just choose from the options from their bank, which are the debit card I already listed (Maestro, VPay, MasterCard Debit or VISA debit), and optionally VISA and MasterCard credit cards (which are separate from their debit cards). Retailers do not have the option of accepting Dutch Maestro/VPay but excluding Maestro/VPay issued elsewhere in Europe. They do have the option to exclude credit cards altogether, and many do for the reason of € 0.06 transaction cost vs 1.7% and that around 100% of Dutch account holders have one of (Maestro, VPay, MasterCard Debit or VISA debit). Xenophobia has nothing to do with it, any more than retailers in your countries might not accept Bancontact, giropay or UnionPay cards.

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