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Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

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Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#151

Post by linsomniac »

andrewstuart wrote: post #39
linsomniac wrote: post #23

A couple weeks ago we put a advert out on Indeed and also listed it here on HN. Initially we didn't have any further qualifications beyond the job post, which did indeed go into details on the job and requesting a cover letter. After spending a couple days of 2-3 hours each on reviewing resumes that were "only ok", we started adding additional hoops for getting resumes in, and also tried to put in a gatekeeper to rea…

This need for a cover letter is essentially asking candidates to tell you how much they love the company and how much they want the job. Why is this important beyond making the company feel loved? As a job applicant I’m not going to invest a minute in your company until you’ve read my resume and expressed an interest. Theres hundreds of companies out there employing who want your time but give nothing back. I know ne…

In our case the job ad says: "Stand out from the crowd and help us get to know you better by including a cover letter. Share your tech interests, explain what drew you to our company, or tell us about any relevant experiences. We're keen to see signs that you've chosen us thoughtfully."

So we aren't looking for a love letter, ideally it'll at least demonstrate that you've read our job listing.

Because at this point I'm pretty sure that 90%+ of the applications we are getting haven't even looked at the job ad, they are just spamming their resume to everything.

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#152

Post by altdataseller »

linsomniac wrote: post #149
altdataseller wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you put a very narrow salary range (ie 150-180k) or wide one (ie 100k-250k) in the job posting?

Yes. We are in Colorado and have to put in the salary range for the position by law.

What’s the typical range difference? Is it strict like 100-130k or more wider like 100-190k?

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#153

Post by arcatech »

meiraleal wrote: post #144
arcatech wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being lucky enough to always have the time to narrow your job search to a few employers and tailor your resume and cover letter to those few is a privileged position. Many people (like those who have been laid off, just out of college and have student loan debt, or are just in any general position where they need income quickly) have to play the numbers game and literally can’t afford to take this person’s advice.

The most effective route to get a job (sending the right application to the right position with a good cover letter) works better for both desperate and comfortable people. Many smart people choose the right path even when they are broke and hopeless, it makes no sense to shift responsibility and call it privilege.

The post I was responding to mentioned sending out LESS resumes. That's not the most effective route.

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#154

Post by catlover76 »

e12e wrote: post #140
catlover76 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not sure if I understand - there are candidates that want the position, but won't write a couple of (relevant) paragraphs? If it's just an open-ended "cover letter"? Then yes. > Surely then they don't have time to interview, negotiate compensation either? They have time for substantive stuff, not nonsense. It sounds like you want to filter only for candidates who may or may not be particularly competent, but wh…

I think we're at least partially talking past each other (quite probably we also disagree). Let's revisit: > The programmers a company wants to hire have options that don't require a cover letter. Ok. That sounds like they expect to be recuited - not needing to apply for a job? Is there a small group of candidates that will read a job ad, be qualified, want the job enough to apply - but only willing to customize the…

> Is there a small group of candidates that will read a job ad, be qualified, want the job enough to apply - but only willing to customize the email address they send their resume to?

I think basically yes.

You raise a good point, though, about people who are really good just always getting recruited. Based on my small sample size, such people do still apply to jobs at startups they find interesting. So their pipeline is thus a mix of cold apps and recruiter activity and referrals.

> But it's not nonsense? It's a job application?

No, it's nonsense. A "cover letter" is a terrible prompt to elicit any meaningful information about a candidate, and implies negative things about the company asking for one. Among them: that the company is perfectly willing to have the candidate waste their own time writing one, so this symmetry of investment and time-saving rationale doesn't seem too convincing, IMO.

I think if you want to assess writing skills, you should ask more focused questions, such as "What is the biggest thing you have built in x language", "What is your experience with y"

You will still filter out good candidates who do not want or do not have time to answer any such questions, but I think those questions are far more fair and probative of the kinds of qualitative skills you are looking for than "write me a thing to tell me how much you want this job"

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#155

Post by linsomniac »

altdataseller wrote: post #152
linsomniac wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. We are in Colorado and have to put in the salary range for the position by law.

What’s the typical range difference? Is it strict like 100-130k or more wider like 100-190k?

It is listed as $90K-$125K.

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#156

Post by meiraleal »

arcatech wrote: post #153
meiraleal wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most effective route to get a job (sending the right application to the right position with a good cover letter) works better for both desperate and comfortable people. Many smart people choose the right path even when they are broke and hopeless, it makes no sense to shift responsibility and call it privilege.

The post I was responding to mentioned sending out LESS resumes. That's not the most effective route.

Sending less resumes to jobs that fits better the applicant CV with a tailored cover letter is the most effective route for both the applicants and the companies offering the jobs - but before all, the company also needs to put some effort creating a good job post.

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#157

Post by irvingprime »

austin-cheney wrote: post #132
linsomniac wrote: post #23

A couple weeks ago we put a advert out on Indeed and also listed it here on HN. Initially we didn't have any further qualifications beyond the job post, which did indeed go into details on the job and requesting a cover letter. After spending a couple days of 2-3 hours each on reviewing resumes that were "only ok", we started adding additional hoops for getting resumes in, and also tried to put in a gatekeeper to rea…

> But, yeah, we're having a hard time finding full-stack people that can hit the ground running with Java and Vue. Why would anybody want to do that? This is actually a serious question. Why would you expect Java developers to want to write frontend JavaScript code? I have seen a lot of positions come up like this and the employer is always left cluelessly scratching their heads as to why hiring is so hard. Is this a…

That was pretty close to my thought when I read this. I start out suspicious of the full stack requirement anyway. Basically it is asking for 1 developer to do the work of 3. Then, on top of that, they want a specific language that is not usually associated with full stack?

It seems like that they are having trouble finding people because what they want is less than optimal.

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#158

Post by irvingprime »

UncleOxidant wrote: post #27
linsomniac wrote: post #23

A couple weeks ago we put a advert out on Indeed and also listed it here on HN. Initially we didn't have any further qualifications beyond the job post, which did indeed go into details on the job and requesting a cover letter. After spending a couple days of 2-3 hours each on reviewing resumes that were "only ok", we started adding additional hoops for getting resumes in, and also tried to put in a gatekeeper to rea…

I'm kind of surprised to hear that cover letters still matter. It seems like most of the places I've applied to recently don't even have an option for including a cover letter. Since most of this is driven by keywords anymore, I guess I figured the cover letter was kind of an anachronism. I suspect you're in a small to medium sized company?

It's rare for anyone to read cover letters. I put one in once in a while. Mostly I have ChatGPT write a draft and then I cut half of it and make some adjustments.

Even with the AI helping, it's more work than I usually want to do for something that is probably going to be ignored.

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#159

Post by linsomniac »

linsomniac wrote: post #23

A couple weeks ago we put a advert out on Indeed and also listed it here on HN. Initially we didn't have any further qualifications beyond the job post, which did indeed go into details on the job and requesting a cover letter. After spending a couple days of 2-3 hours each on reviewing resumes that were "only ok", we started adding additional hoops for getting resumes in, and also tried to put in a gatekeeper to rea…

My friend Jacob Kaplan-Moss says "Hiring is probably the highest leverage activity a manager will engage in. If you hire well, that person could be on your team for 10 years and do an amazing amount of work. On the other hand if you screw it up, you can absolutely destroy a team."

Is a cover letter or a resume going to allow a manager the best chance at making a good hiring decision, WRT to finding a good fit for the project and team?

Clearly, you'll need more than just one or both of those, but as a first step, I'll take a cover letter that shows you give a damn over a fire and forget resume . If your only interaction with hiring is: "I'm willing to put in nothing more than the bare minimum", that's telling me something.

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#160

Post by 1123581321 »

kaycey2022 wrote: post #129
1123581321 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A cover letter is a place to put relevant information about you that doesn’t go on a resume. If you received a notice that your resume had been read, they liked it, and they wanted a cover letter before an interview, would you submit one?

Maybe rather than a cover letter which seems too open ended and come with its own special kind of stress for some people, companies can just ask candidates to fill out a questionnaire that asks for approaches to specific situations that an employee will have to face in this situation?

I think that's a fine approach. It's not uncommon to see a bit of guidance on the cover letter request (calling it 'a paragraph telling us why you'd like to work here' and so on.)
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