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Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

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Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#141

Post by austin-cheney »

Gud wrote: post #133
austin-cheney wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But, yeah, we're having a hard time finding full-stack people that can hit the ground running with Java and Vue. Why would anybody want to do that? This is actually a serious question. Why would you expect Java developers to want to write frontend JavaScript code? I have seen a lot of positions come up like this and the employer is always left cluelessly scratching their heads as to why hiring is so hard. Is this a…

Why not? Many people thrive when working with the full stack. Why does everything need to be so compartmentalized?

In my experience working in large Java shops for over a decade this is almost never true. Many Java developers are mortified by JavaScript and typically prefer Angular framework because it imposes a bloated OOP MVVM model that Java developers find more familiar. CSS is like fatal kryptonite (Superman poison) to most Java developers.

This could be why that employer is not happy with the quality of candidates. They are forcefully imposing Java with an iron fist and wondering why people aren’t thrilled to work fullstack like that, when most people are not thrilled to work fullstack like that.

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#142

Post by sideshowb »

jpp wrote: post #59

We finished a hiring process about 2 months ago, along with two other hires earlier in the year. As a hiring manager, 2023 has been brutal — 1,000:1 application to hire ratio (based on stats in Lever; no exaggeration). I’ve made a point to try to be as open and as fair as possible in our hiring process. We list the salaries up-front in the job description. We create per-hire ”join our team” pages that share a lot mor…

This mostly sounds good but I wonder if you'd make it better by dropping the strict postgres requirements.

I've never used postgres. I've worked with umpteen technologies over the years, including lots of gis, just never needed to use postgres yet. But I know it's out there and I'm confident if I needed to, it wouldn't take more than a few days to catch up.

Not a dig at you specifically but a lot of companies seem to look for specific tech experience rather than a track record of just learning whatever tech is needed.

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#143

Post by isbvhodnvemrwvn »

throwaway5959 wrote: post #115
vunderba wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lol. Time zones differences are the least of an employers concerns if they're interested in hiring internationally. Taxes / liability / language differences are far more of an issue. This is why you see tons of positions that state "Remote US only".

I work with a number of employees in Eastern Europe and LatAm. Their English is fine and the taxes/liability stuff is all managed by the contracting company. Whenever they switch companies a new employee is swapped in by the company. It’s way easier than trying to find employees in southern CA.

Not sure about the other countries, but in Poland the quality of developers working for body leasing companies is very poor.

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#144

Post by meiraleal »

arcatech wrote: post #131
toomanyrichers wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Privileged” has become a 4 letter word bandied about only to disparage one’s opponent. It’s absolute bullshit. What precisely do you mean?

Being lucky enough to always have the time to narrow your job search to a few employers and tailor your resume and cover letter to those few is a privileged position. Many people (like those who have been laid off, just out of college and have student loan debt, or are just in any general position where they need income quickly) have to play the numbers game and literally can’t afford to take this person’s advice.

The most effective route to get a job (sending the right application to the right position with a good cover letter) works better for both desperate and comfortable people.

Many smart people choose the right path even when they are broke and hopeless, it makes no sense to shift responsibility and call it privilege.

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#145

Post by linsomniac »

austin-cheney wrote: post #141
Gud wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? Many people thrive when working with the full stack. Why does everything need to be so compartmentalized?

In my experience working in large Java shops for over a decade this is almost never true. Many Java developers are mortified by JavaScript and typically prefer Angular framework because it imposes a bloated OOP MVVM model that Java developers find more familiar. CSS is like fatal kryptonite (Superman poison) to most Java developers. This could be why that employer is not happy with the quality of candidates. They are…

Considering we have only gotten a handful of cover letters, we are having to go by the resume. So if your resume has no Vue and/or no Java, we're forced to read between the lines and guess that there's a reason. Not so much an iron fist, but 95+% of resumes don't convey any passion, so it's hard to say this guy has a passion that will translate to Vue+Java.

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#146

Post by linsomniac »

austin-cheney wrote: post #132
linsomniac wrote: post #23

A couple weeks ago we put a advert out on Indeed and also listed it here on HN. Initially we didn't have any further qualifications beyond the job post, which did indeed go into details on the job and requesting a cover letter. After spending a couple days of 2-3 hours each on reviewing resumes that were "only ok", we started adding additional hoops for getting resumes in, and also tried to put in a gatekeeper to rea…

> But, yeah, we're having a hard time finding full-stack people that can hit the ground running with Java and Vue. Why would anybody want to do that? This is actually a serious question. Why would you expect Java developers to want to write frontend JavaScript code? I have seen a lot of positions come up like this and the employer is always left cluelessly scratching their heads as to why hiring is so hard. Is this a…

In our case, we're a small company that is likely to stay a small company: we have 10 people on the technology side, 4-5 are developers. It's hard to have someone siloed as just backend, but maybe we should consider that.

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#147

Post by linsomniac »

taurath wrote: post #139
linsomniac wrote: post #23

A couple weeks ago we put a advert out on Indeed and also listed it here on HN. Initially we didn't have any further qualifications beyond the job post, which did indeed go into details on the job and requesting a cover letter. After spending a couple days of 2-3 hours each on reviewing resumes that were "only ok", we started adding additional hoops for getting resumes in, and also tried to put in a gatekeeper to rea…

> But, yeah, we're having a hard time finding full-stack people that can hit the ground running with Java and Vue Why not get people who’ve worked with Java and other frontend frameworks, or Vue and other object oriented languages? In my first coding role I knew absolutely no C#, just some JS but I was contributing to the codebase within a week. Most of the particulars of your codebase will be particular to your code…

We are open to that, but without getting many cover letters it's very hard to pick out the people who have the passion to learn new things, from the people happy with what they are doing. It's hard to tell the people who are doing Angular but interested in trying Vue from the people who find Angular a better fit for their Java sensibilities and don't want to do Vue.

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#148

Post by linsomniac »

transcriptase wrote: post #63
linsomniac wrote: post #23

A couple weeks ago we put a advert out on Indeed and also listed it here on HN. Initially we didn't have any further qualifications beyond the job post, which did indeed go into details on the job and requesting a cover letter. After spending a couple days of 2-3 hours each on reviewing resumes that were "only ok", we started adding additional hoops for getting resumes in, and also tried to put in a gatekeeper to rea…

I can sit there and spend significant time per application elegantly explaining how the details I've already put in my resume are relevant to the job description, only to have it never reach a human because a poorly designed parser didn't find a keyword or ML gave it 1 point under a set score threshold. Or a human could just read the resume.

This is a Mexican standoff. You aren't willing to write a cover letter, because a machine might be reading it, and we are getting resumes that, on their own, are just a "maybe" along with 100+ other "maybes". On the other side, we have been inundated with "fire and forget" resumes that make it hard: why should we invest time in your resume when you haven't invested time in your application?

In our case, we have 3 out of 10 people at the company reviewing these resumes (CTO, senior sysadmin, full-stack dev). We are committing significant resources to reviewing applications.

If you are going to optimize for submitting to a machine that scores your application, don't be surprised that a human isn't reading your application.

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#149

Post by linsomniac »

altdataseller wrote: post #116
linsomniac wrote: post #23

A couple weeks ago we put a advert out on Indeed and also listed it here on HN. Initially we didn't have any further qualifications beyond the job post, which did indeed go into details on the job and requesting a cover letter. After spending a couple days of 2-3 hours each on reviewing resumes that were "only ok", we started adding additional hoops for getting resumes in, and also tried to put in a gatekeeper to rea…

Did you put a very narrow salary range (ie 150-180k) or wide one (ie 100k-250k) in the job posting?

Yes. We are in Colorado and have to put in the salary range for the position by law.

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#150

Post by linsomniac »

bilsbie wrote: post #29
linsomniac wrote: post #23

A couple weeks ago we put a advert out on Indeed and also listed it here on HN. Initially we didn't have any further qualifications beyond the job post, which did indeed go into details on the job and requesting a cover letter. After spending a couple days of 2-3 hours each on reviewing resumes that were "only ok", we started adding additional hoops for getting resumes in, and also tried to put in a gatekeeper to rea…

My boomer grandfather called and wants his cover letter back. Jk but why not ask for a five minute coding challenge instead of a cover letter. Eg decode this string and include it in the subject line.

Help me out here: What's the modern way to hire?

Because if it's not asking for a cover letter, you as an applicant are one of 160 low-effort resumes we've gotten this week. Do we build a ML to try to parse all these and then ask it to score everything? Because I hear a lot of people in this thread saying that's exactly what they hate about hiring.

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