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Toyota CEO: "Our ammonia engine is the end of EV's" [video]

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Re: Toyota CEO: "Our ammonia engine is the end of EV's" [video]

#51

Post by jfengel »

brohee wrote: post #27
Arrath wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did they even come up with the idea to use anhydrous ammonia as a fuel? Did some tired engineer suggest it as a jest at the tail end of an exhausting meeting and, to their horror, it was moved forward? This reminds me of rocket scientists trying out ever nastier and deadlier chemicals in the early days of space exploration.

If you dismiss hydrogen as fuel made from renewable electricity, and frankly you should on density and safety basis, the two most practical options are methane and ammonia. Ammonia got an easy electrity to fuel process, easier than methane that starts with hydrogen. Ammonia is kinda nasty but used plenty (for example in cooling) without a terrible safety record. Not sure that safety is a better argument against it th…

If you're making methane and ammonia, why not go further and make hydrocarbons? I'm sure you lose some energy in the process, but you gain the ability to re-use all of your existing infrastructure unchanged.

Re: Toyota CEO: "Our ammonia engine is the end of EV's" [video]

#52

Post by red-iron-pine »

0xbadc0de5 wrote: post #46

Toyota's anti EV stance would be funny if it weren't so tragic. It's practically a meme at this point.

the real tragedy is the Prius. they had such a head start, and could have created a PriusE or something that would have had a ton of pull.

imagine a Hilux or Tacoma truck EV with Toyota reliability added on there. meanwhile TSLA can't do QA to save its life. the EV F-150 is so hot Ford can't keep up with demand.

Re: Toyota CEO: "Our ammonia engine is the end of EV's" [video]

#53

Post by rini17 »

KiwiJohnno wrote: post #4

I'm not buying this at all. People freak out about EV battery fires now (never mind that this is not actually the problem it is made out to be), can you imagine the hazmat situation from a couple of cars carrying who knows how many KG of Anhydrous Ammonia crashing into each other? I mean, you might make the fuel tanks extremely robust (and heavy) but fuel lines etc will still break. Ammonia in the air at 300 PPM will…

I was thinking perhaps it's ~30% ammonia near-saturated solution in water which is easier to handle. But there's no indication in video, it would need to be dehydrated before burning, lowering efficiency. Also it means getting from over 12 MJ/l down to 4. Compared to gasoline 34 MJ/l. Would need several hundred liters fuel tank to have comparable range.

Re: Toyota CEO: "Our ammonia engine is the end of EV's" [video]

#54

Post by rini17 »

BenoitP wrote: post #45
legohead wrote: post #17

Toyota is so weird about their EV stance. What I particularly like about EVs is their low maintenance. You remove many components that are required with ICE. Regenerative braking makes your brake pads last a crazy amount longer. And now with this ammonia engine we are adding even more components to the vehicle? No thanks. Not to even mention the fuel distribution problem.

Toyota is the top company in global market share [1]. They are way more affected by global systemic issues than others. This means: * They can't retreat into a niche * Their bread and butter is efficiency, accumulated through tears and scale effects through decades of experience. That's a pretty deep moat. All that is partially reset with an industry-wide change * Global copper, cobalt, lithium reserves (new deposits…

If they expect the classical BEVs to run into problems with supply of the metals, that still does not explain the weird choices Toyota makes. Why don't they explore options that don't require consumers directly handling large amounts of dangerous substances like hydrogen or anhydrous ammonia.

Re: Toyota CEO: "Our ammonia engine is the end of EV's" [video]

#55

Post by bdamm »

userinanother wrote: post #42

The common wisdom on HN is that Toyota missed the boat on evs but I don’t think the boat will really set sail for another 7-10 years. Sure there are some evs out there and the market segment is growing but the charger network isn’t there. The charger standard will probably looks like it will finally converge in 2-3 years but good availability of ev chargers across the country will take at least 7 years. So Toyota has…

There is no "reset" button on gaining market share. In 7-10 years, if Toyota hasn't got some class of EVs locked up, their only option will be to buy one of the other players.

The charging standard is converging to the current dominant player who has functioning charging and who's cars road trip just fine - Tesla.

If Toyota doesn't get some decent EVs to market soon they will simply be left behind and will turn into a financial and branding husk while everyone else does the real work, eventually vanishing into the dustbin of history as one of GM's sub-brands. They can't magically produce innovative products unless they get into the game. In 7 years it will be game over.

Re: Toyota CEO: "Our ammonia engine is the end of EV's" [video]

#56

Post by bdamm »

Enginerrrd wrote: post #3
dexwiz wrote: post #2

Sure, its carbon free, but NOx (NO, NO2, N2O etc) are really terrible greeenhouse gases and one of the main causes of smog. Catalytic convertors are there just to address this and try to mitigate the problem since all fuel contains a small amount of nitrogen compounds. Let's hope they don't replace one GHG with another.

I think it's a closed system, fuel cell, no?

No, they are advertising an ammonia-based internal combustion engine.

Re: Toyota CEO: "Our ammonia engine is the end of EV's" [video]

#57

Post by userinanother »

bdamm wrote: post #55
userinanother wrote: post #42

The common wisdom on HN is that Toyota missed the boat on evs but I don’t think the boat will really set sail for another 7-10 years. Sure there are some evs out there and the market segment is growing but the charger network isn’t there. The charger standard will probably looks like it will finally converge in 2-3 years but good availability of ev chargers across the country will take at least 7 years. So Toyota has…

There is no "reset" button on gaining market share. In 7-10 years, if Toyota hasn't got some class of EVs locked up, their only option will be to buy one of the other players. The charging standard is converging to the current dominant player who has functioning charging and who's cars road trip just fine - Tesla. If Toyota doesn't get some decent EVs to market soon they will simply be left behind and will turn into…

They have a ev it’s good enough as a tech demonstration and and R&D platform but Toyota and Tesla are opposite ends of the spectrum. Toyota is like freeBSD it’s tired true and rock solid. Tesla is like some new beta distro it’s got all the bells and whistles but tons of reliability and quality problems. I don’t see Tesla ever overcoming quality problems. Poor quality is built into their culture and you can’t fix culture

Re: Toyota CEO: "Our ammonia engine is the end of EV's" [video]

#58

Post by brohee »

jfengel wrote: post #51
brohee wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you dismiss hydrogen as fuel made from renewable electricity, and frankly you should on density and safety basis, the two most practical options are methane and ammonia. Ammonia got an easy electrity to fuel process, easier than methane that starts with hydrogen. Ammonia is kinda nasty but used plenty (for example in cooling) without a terrible safety record. Not sure that safety is a better argument against it th…

If you're making methane and ammonia, why not go further and make hydrocarbons? I'm sure you lose some energy in the process, but you gain the ability to re-use all of your existing infrastructure unchanged.

Synfuel for now is super expensive, the one use case that makes sense that I have seen is an aircraft carrier making jet fuel from nuclear fuel.

Re: Toyota CEO: "Our ammonia engine is the end of EV's" [video]

#60

Post by jki275 »

red-iron-pine wrote: post #49
jki275 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Toyota absolutely wants your car to never break. That's their entire business philosophy, and why I drive Toyotas and have for decades.

But you pay for that privilege, e.g. the "Toyota Tax"

You are correct, and I'm happy to pay it!
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