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Toyota CEO: "Our ammonia engine is the end of EV's" [video]

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Re: Toyota CEO: "Our ammonia engine is the end of EV's" [video]

#31

Post by nostrademons »

legohead wrote: post #17

Toyota is so weird about their EV stance. What I particularly like about EVs is their low maintenance. You remove many components that are required with ICE. Regenerative braking makes your brake pads last a crazy amount longer. And now with this ammonia engine we are adding even more components to the vehicle? No thanks. Not to even mention the fuel distribution problem.

It destroys a lot of the competitive advantage Toyota has. Toyota is very, very good at making mechanical components to very high precision & quality levels. They've built up this core competency by careful attention to detail over decades. It's one of the main reasons why people buy Toyotas.

With EVs, you remove many of the components that are required with ICE. Hence, it doesn't matter how good you are at making those components and sourcing them from suppliers. Hence, a random startup can do nearly as well as Toyota, with their billions in capital invested and decades of experience.

It's kind of a shame, though, since I'd love to have something with the reliability of a Toyota that also applies that reliability to the EV powertrain. Maybe one of their ex-employees will start something.

Re: Toyota CEO: "Our ammonia engine is the end of EV's" [video]

#32

Post by globalreset »

I'm surprised about the negativity in the comments. I'm happy someone is testing alternative approache. If they're wrong, they just wasted a bit of their own capital. If they are right - we might all benefit. You've got to treat technology as means to an end, not a religion that requires conformity.

Re: Toyota CEO: "Our ammonia engine is the end of EV's" [video]

#33

Post by jaggs »

It's actually sad and rather weird at the same time. The Japanese motor industry has been caught completely flat footed in the future car stakes - despite arguably starting ahead of the pack with the Leaf, Prius etc - and now spends its time desperately trying to make various random techs 'sexy' as they scramble to catch up.

If they spent half this time making cool EVs, or delivering great battery improvements, they could be back in the game. Instead of letting China dominate more with each passing month. So strange.

Re: Toyota CEO: "Our ammonia engine is the end of EV's" [video]

#34

Post by FooBarBizBazz »

brohee wrote: post #27
Arrath wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did they even come up with the idea to use anhydrous ammonia as a fuel? Did some tired engineer suggest it as a jest at the tail end of an exhausting meeting and, to their horror, it was moved forward? This reminds me of rocket scientists trying out ever nastier and deadlier chemicals in the early days of space exploration.

If you dismiss hydrogen as fuel made from renewable electricity, and frankly you should on density and safety basis, the two most practical options are methane and ammonia. Ammonia got an easy electrity to fuel process, easier than methane that starts with hydrogen. Ammonia is kinda nasty but used plenty (for example in cooling) without a terrible safety record. Not sure that safety is a better argument against it th…

Yeah, I'll grant that there are problems with ammonia, but I think this parallel quest to come up with synthetic fuels is a good one. A car is just one part of a car-fuel-road system, and if you can move complexity out of the car and into a chemical plant, that might be good -- particularly if that solves the range and recharging issues.

Fuel cells are close cousins of batteries anyway.

And there are even redox flow batteries that are even more intermediate. The energy density isn't high enough (these things are actually used for static energy storage, with vats the size of buildings), but imagine a "fuel station" that exchanged Vanadium in different oxidation states with a car, or that swapped some hydrocarbon that can store energy like ATP in biology.

Heck, including the atmosphere in the system could be ok too (e.g., CO2 capture), so long as everything balances to zero and the thermodynamics work out (even just mixing and unmixing CO2 with oxygen and nitrogen is an expensive trip up and down in entropy though).

I'm quite happy for this kind of work to continue.

And like you say, people are putting big money towards running container ships on ammonia. It's sure better than bunker oil. And we're also definitely not going to use big batteries.

So, good on Toyota. Somebody needs to keep exploring alternatives.

Re: Toyota CEO: "Our ammonia engine is the end of EV's" [video]

#35

Post by nucleative »

"A company cannot disrupt itself" - Clayton Christensen

Toyota has mastered precision replicable production of internal combustion engines and related components.

This has been Toyota's perpetual money tree. I'm sure the reward systems inside Toyota management favor those who improve it and protect it.

I'm sure at first they laughed at these pipsqueak EV guys with software backgrounds.

Toyota engineers who propose and work on alternative fuels, like ammonia, are probably not laughed out of the room - which is also full of other career internal combustion engineers.

Re: Toyota CEO: "Our ammonia engine is the end of EV's" [video]

#36

Post by Turing_Machine »

brohee wrote: post #27
Arrath wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did they even come up with the idea to use anhydrous ammonia as a fuel? Did some tired engineer suggest it as a jest at the tail end of an exhausting meeting and, to their horror, it was moved forward? This reminds me of rocket scientists trying out ever nastier and deadlier chemicals in the early days of space exploration.

If you dismiss hydrogen as fuel made from renewable electricity, and frankly you should on density and safety basis, the two most practical options are methane and ammonia. Ammonia got an easy electrity to fuel process, easier than methane that starts with hydrogen. Ammonia is kinda nasty but used plenty (for example in cooling) without a terrible safety record. Not sure that safety is a better argument against it th…

Some argue that liquid nitrogen is a decent option for short range. It's cheap, can be contained in relatively low-cost tanks (compared to hydrogen, certainly), and can be refilled quickly.

The LN2 doesn't actually burn. It's more like a steam engine, where the pressure from the vaporizing nitrogen drives pistons or turbines.

The nice thing here is that the LN2 comes straight from the atmosphere and goes straight back into it. Net zero emissions from the car (obviously producing the energy to compress the nitrogen in the first place isn't going to be net zero, but that's basically the same issue as with hydrogen, electricity, or this ammonia system).

Re: Toyota CEO: "Our ammonia engine is the end of EV's" [video]

#37

Post by jki275 »

isilofi wrote: post #20
legohead wrote: post #17

Toyota is so weird about their EV stance. What I particularly like about EVs is their low maintenance. You remove many components that are required with ICE. Regenerative braking makes your brake pads last a crazy amount longer. And now with this ammonia engine we are adding even more components to the vehicle? No thanks. Not to even mention the fuel distribution problem.

You like "low maintenance". Car companies don't. A significant part of their business is tied to replacement parts and their chains of brand dealerships and brand workshops. With EVs, that whole gravy train might end, or at least loose a lot.

Toyota absolutely wants your car to never break. That's their entire business philosophy, and why I drive Toyotas and have for decades.

Re: Toyota CEO: "Our ammonia engine is the end of EV's" [video]

#38

Post by slowmovintarget »

So... A month ago it was also the BMW CEO saying the same thing. Then Ford. Now Toyota? Three months ago, Mercedes was about to "destroy" the entire automotive industry. Nine months ago, Ford was going to "destroy" the EV market with... batteries. Oh wait, those are all video titles from the same YT channel.

Next.

Re: Toyota CEO: "Our ammonia engine is the end of EV's" [video]

#39

Post by donor20 »

jaggs wrote: post #33

It's actually sad and rather weird at the same time. The Japanese motor industry has been caught completely flat footed in the future car stakes - despite arguably starting ahead of the pack with the Leaf, Prius etc - and now spends its time desperately trying to make various random techs 'sexy' as they scramble to catch up. If they spent half this time making cool EVs, or delivering great battery improvements, they…

Toyota had the most real world electric drive train miles, regen braking, battery mgmt etc etc. I thought for sure they’d move Prius to an extender model maybe, phev earlier etc etc. instead it was hydrogen endlessly- the amount they spent on hydrogen has to be huge!

Re: Toyota CEO: "Our ammonia engine is the end of EV's" [video]

#40

Post by barrysteve »

nucleative wrote: post #35

"A company cannot disrupt itself" - Clayton Christensen Toyota has mastered precision replicable production of internal combustion engines and related components. This has been Toyota's perpetual money tree. I'm sure the reward systems inside Toyota management favor those who improve it and protect it. I'm sure at first they laughed at these pipsqueak EV guys with software backgrounds. Toyota engineers who propose an…

I sincerley doubt they are ideologically committed to a specific engine technology.

W. Edward Deming helped start the Toyota Way, by introducing high quality manufacturing processes after ww2.

I'm sure they laugh at Elon for being unable to produce a high quality and error-free product, with infinite money and all the latest technologies at his fingertips.

Toyota's unending crisis will continue, by design.

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