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Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

theguardian.com

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Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#221

Post by DrThunder »

Luc wrote: post #64
DrThunder wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is what's "required" a consideration? Almost nothing in modern life is required. You don't need AC, heat, refrigeration, video games, movies etc. NONE of that is a requirement and it all contributes to climate change. Part of living in a free society is that you get to have things that aren't required. IF I want to buy the biggest gas guzzling truck there is, I should have the right to do so since I'll be spendin…

The people placing power in the hands of representatives through democratic elections, choosing not to have the biggest gas guzzling trucks on their inner city streets.

That's not true at all but nice try. (see EV sales)

Creating excuses for totalitarianism is fun.

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#222

Post by DrThunder »

stuaxo wrote: post #145
DrThunder wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is what's "required" a consideration? Almost nothing in modern life is required. You don't need AC, heat, refrigeration, video games, movies etc. NONE of that is a requirement and it all contributes to climate change. Part of living in a free society is that you get to have things that aren't required. IF I want to buy the biggest gas guzzling truck there is, I should have the right to do so since I'll be spendin…

What about other people's freedom to not breath polluted air from bigger trucks ? The freedom to impose on other people's freedom is a funny one.

What about my freedom for your modern house and internet powered by coal to not kill me?

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#223

Post by Mawr »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #81
nerdjon wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really wish we could get more pedestrian focus in the US. While this does still allow cars, it seems like it's a start. Meanwhile in NY some people are all up in arms about the congestion toll. In Boston a certain subset of people are losing their minds at one of our streets going pedestrian only on Saturdays during the summer. the US really has a crazy relationship with cars

~50% of Americans are sedentary and obese. They're obviously going to want cars. Walking & cycling are not options (see sedentary).

Perhaps the sedentary lifestyle is partially caused by the high car usage, so switching over to cycling would be beneficial.

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#224

Post by belorn »

throwaw33333434 wrote: post #117

I wonder why when Stockholm did it, it made the news, but, say Kraków did it we don't see it. City pays for PR?

Kraków is a low emission zone, not a zero emission zone which is what Stockholm is doing. It not the first EU initiative for ZEZ, but it seems more often that ZEZ get implemented by making it a car-free area.

To add more context: "The first phase of the Krakow LEZ will restrict vehicles with EU exhaust emission standards Euro 1 petrol and Euro 2 diesel vehicles, before tightening restrictions further in 2026. After then, only cars with a minimum norm Euro 3 for petrol and Euro 5 for diesel will be allowed in the city (20% of the current fleet will be affected). "

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#225

Post by Tade0 »

InitialLastName wrote: post #210
Tade0 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's another, not great stat: https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2023/16/more-traffic-deaths-in...

That 757 traffic deaths in 2022, while tragic, makes it 4 deaths per 100K people in the Netherlands. For comparison, the NHTSA is estimating the US had 42,795 traffic deaths in 2022, which is 13 deaths per 100k people per year. Even a horrifically bad year in the Netherlands is dwarfed by the rate cars kill people in the US. [0] https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/traffic-crash-death-est...

That's true, but it's also more than in relatively car-oriented Germany, not to mention definitely car-oriented (in European terms) Ireland.

My point being: it's not the mode of personal transport, but approach to safety that ultimately makes the numbers. The Dutch are unwilling to mandate bike helmets, saying that it would reduce cycling.

This begs the question: what's more important really?

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#226

Post by wenc »

CalRobert wrote: post #20

It's small, but it's a start. Next, remove as many cars as possible (some deliveries, taxis, and emergency vehicles make sense, as well as microcars for people who need them, of course). I'm appalled at the people here saying you need a car to lead a full life. A car-dependent life is an empty and sad one for many of us. I moved to the Netherlands with my family (two young daughters) and it has been _absolutely fanta…

> I'm appalled at the people here saying you need a car to lead a full life. A car-dependent life is an empty and sad one for many of us.

As someone who loves car-less living in big cities like NYC, I think the position above is an ideological belief rather than a practical one.

Every geography and lifestyle has an optimum mode of transportation. In dense urban environments, it would be a heterogeneous mix of public transit for longer distances, scooters or bikes for last mile/yard, and the occasional taxi for groceries or the like.

But for those of us who have active busy lives and need to meet friends, take classes, go to events, etc. across town, our time is maximized by the use of a car if the geography admits it. I used to live in Chicago where you absolutely did not need a car, but a car saves you time, lets you explore more parts of the city, and lets you pack more activities in 5 work nights than if you had to rely on public transit and transfers between different lines.

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#228

Post by verisimi »

V__ wrote: post #213
verisimi wrote: post #59

The people in nordic countries seem so naive to me. They trust their governments, their authorities to do this stuff, to both determine the greater good and then implement it. The political class couldn't possibly act immorally, for their own benefit, apparently. Whereas the reality is that these actions are preplanned internationally and designed (by opaque agencies such the club of Rome and the UN) in order for ind…

It seems that more and more conspiracies are leaking to HN, sad really.

Do you think that conspiring doesn't occur? Do you think the media will inform you about what is going on at a supra-national level?

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#229

Post by Ekaros »

CalRobert wrote: post #20

It's small, but it's a start. Next, remove as many cars as possible (some deliveries, taxis, and emergency vehicles make sense, as well as microcars for people who need them, of course). I'm appalled at the people here saying you need a car to lead a full life. A car-dependent life is an empty and sad one for many of us. I moved to the Netherlands with my family (two young daughters) and it has been _absolutely fanta…

Why even allow taxis? They should only be allowed for very limited purposes. Like those with mobility restrictions and non-critical healthcare. Anything else complete ban.

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#230

Post by CalRobert »

Tade0 wrote: post #225
InitialLastName wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That 757 traffic deaths in 2022, while tragic, makes it 4 deaths per 100K people in the Netherlands. For comparison, the NHTSA is estimating the US had 42,795 traffic deaths in 2022, which is 13 deaths per 100k people per year. Even a horrifically bad year in the Netherlands is dwarfed by the rate cars kill people in the US. [0] https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/traffic-crash-death-est...

That's true, but it's also more than in relatively car-oriented Germany, not to mention definitely car-oriented (in European terms) Ireland. My point being: it's not the mode of personal transport, but approach to safety that ultimately makes the numbers. The Dutch are unwilling to mandate bike helmets, saying that it would reduce cycling. This begs the question: what's more important really?

As best I can tell, it isn't clear what the impact on cycling is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_helmets_in_Australia

I'm ambivalent. I personally think a helmet saved my life when I was riding in Sacramento but I ride much more slowly here in NL (about 8-11 mph). I wouldn't mind if helmets were normalized but (as noted at wikipedia) that makes using OV-fiets, etc. more of a hassle.

Certainly a helmet is a good idea when riding a faster e-bike.

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