Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025 • Hacker News Board

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#71

Post by hef19898 » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 1:53 PM UTC

robertlagrant wrote: post #50

jmrm wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most kids know how to use the public transportation, and being ouside is safe enough to let your kids outside without needing to be with them. Also, some European countries do a really high effort to make their public schools so good that rich people study in the public centres.

> Most kids know how to use the public transportation Not kids from age 3-10, and from then on really just a simple one bus or tram route. There's no point pretending this isn't a big issue. You might say it's worth those people leaving the city to make it happen, but saying it's not life-changing for them is doing them a massive disservice.

I can assure you that somewhere around the 6-7 year mark, it is completely normal for kids to take public transport to go to school. It is where I live, it is in Munich (always fun to end up in the school rush hour sharing the subway with all those little ones riding the train like a pro). It is simply normal for those and nothing even remotely special or weird.

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#72

Post by ecmascript » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 1:53 PM UTC

thebiss wrote: post #55

ecmascript wrote: post #36

As a Swede born and raised in Stockholm but no longer live there I wonder if delivery trucks and people working (carpenters etc) will be excempt from these rules? This is a serious question because the changes comes (mainly) from a radical left wing political party that had deliveries on the subway as a serious solution to banning car traffic. Personally I don't really care since I don't live in Stockholm anymore but…

The article indicates there will be some exceptions: > While it is primarily intended to allow for only fully electric cars, bigger vans with plug-in hybrid engines will also be allowed, and exceptions will be made for ambulances and police cars, as well as cars in which the driver or passenger has a documented disability

So I guess the imported soy lattes of those who made the rule changes are going to have a price increase due to delivery companies that need to upgrade their fleet. ;D

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#73

Post by nerdjon » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 1:53 PM UTC

boxed wrote: post #6

It's a tiny part of the center of Stockholm. https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/stockholm/bensin-och-diese... has a map. Roughly 4x4 blocks.

I really wish we could get more pedestrian focus in the US. While this does still allow cars, it seems like it's a start.

Meanwhile in NY some people are all up in arms about the congestion toll.

In Boston a certain subset of people are losing their minds at one of our streets going pedestrian only on Saturdays during the summer.

the US really has a crazy relationship with cars

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#74

Post by londons_explore » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 1:53 PM UTC

verisimi wrote: post #59

The people in nordic countries seem so naive to me. They trust their governments, their authorities to do this stuff, to both determine the greater good and then implement it. The political class couldn't possibly act immorally, for their own benefit, apparently. Whereas the reality is that these actions are preplanned internationally and designed (by opaque agencies such the club of Rome and the UN) in order for ind…

These people did vote in their governments, and for the most part they're happy with the decisions of those they voted in.

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#75

Post by yobbo » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 1:53 PM UTC

teddyh wrote: post #2

Another article in English: https://www.thelocal.se/20231010/stockholm-to-ban-petrol-and... > Maps here: https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/stockholm/bensin-och-diese... > and here: https://www.dn.se/sverige/bensin-och-dieselbilar-forbjuds-i-... >. Note that the area is comparatively tiny ; 180 000m² according to some articles, closer to 200 000m² according to my measurements – but in any case smaller than 50 acres. O…

Also; it is not a residential area. There are mostly office buildings and shopping centers there. It will require delivery trucks to be at least hybrids.

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#76

Post by elric » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 1:55 PM UTC

qwytw wrote: post #58

pera wrote: post #21

I think it's absolutely crazy that our society is OK with car drivers polluting the air with carcinogenic particles. I hope more cities around the world implement similar bans soon.

EVs are not the solution for that, brake and tire wear contribute to as much or more PM2.5 and 2-3 times more PM10 pollution than modern ICEs . Also while there will be some improvement it will be possibly partially outweighed by the fact the EVs generally weight more. Of course we can just ignore that which is not at all crazy... Edit: I'm certainly not using this as argument to not ban ICE vehicles in city centers.…

That's probably true if you only look at the cars themselves, but don't forget that getting petrol in cars requires a huge petrochemical industry, from oil wells to refineries, pipelines and pumping stations. Each of those steps also emits all kinds of crap. The same is true for electricity from many sources, but overall I suspect EVs come out somewhat better than petrol cars.

Of course, cars are generally too big, too heavy, and too fast. Addressing those issues would benefit everyone, regardless of fuel source.

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#77

Post by alkonaut » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 1:55 PM UTC

londons_explore wrote: post #39

hyperman1 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can grow. A few cities started car-free or car polution limiting zones. Every year,the zone grows and the rules get stricter. This way makes it safe to feel the waters, tweak public transports, get people's reaction, without killing it in the cradle.

It's pretty expensive for the city to do that. Tons of signage needs to be removed and replaced with every expansion, and if you choose automated enforcement you need to install lots of new cameras and posts too. Easier to start with one big zone over the whole city, and keep making the requirements stricter automatically. Eg. Take the cars age, add the current year, subtract the cars rated mpg, add 10 if it's a dies…

The whole city already has a congestion tax with cameras reading number plates, and of course a variable congestion fee with much higher fees at rush hours.

The simplest way forward I think would be to just double the fees for ICE cars, and cutting them for EV's. It would be a software only solution, so cheap-ish. It would only be possible to do for the whole inner city though. Can't do it for half the city.

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#78

Post by londons_explore » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 1:55 PM UTC

gruturo wrote: post #66

verisimi wrote: post #59

The people in nordic countries seem so naive to me. They trust their governments, their authorities to do this stuff, to both determine the greater good and then implement it. The political class couldn't possibly act immorally, for their own benefit, apparently. Whereas the reality is that these actions are preplanned internationally and designed (by opaque agencies such the club of Rome and the UN) in order for ind…

You know what's even more shocking about the attitude of the nordic countries? It works pretty nicely, try visiting those places.

The huge oil reserves and tiny population make it much easier to give everyone a good quality of life...

It also masks the effects of inefficient decisionmaking.

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#79

Post by hef19898 » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 1:56 PM UTC

gruturo wrote: post #66

verisimi wrote: post #59

The people in nordic countries seem so naive to me. They trust their governments, their authorities to do this stuff, to both determine the greater good and then implement it. The political class couldn't possibly act immorally, for their own benefit, apparently. Whereas the reality is that these actions are preplanned internationally and designed (by opaque agencies such the club of Rome and the UN) in order for ind…

You know what's even more shocking about the attitude of the nordic countries? It works pretty nicely, try visiting those places.

But those countries are socialist hell holes! /s

Of course they are not, and trusting the government to do the right thing isn't too bad a position neither. After, we vote for them.

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#80

Post by sampo » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 1:56 PM UTC

qwytw wrote: post #58

pera wrote: post #21

I think it's absolutely crazy that our society is OK with car drivers polluting the air with carcinogenic particles. I hope more cities around the world implement similar bans soon.

EVs are not the solution for that, brake and tire wear contribute to as much or more PM2.5 and 2-3 times more PM10 pollution than modern ICEs . Also while there will be some improvement it will be possibly partially outweighed by the fact the EVs generally weight more. Of course we can just ignore that which is not at all crazy... Edit: I'm certainly not using this as argument to not ban ICE vehicles in city centers.…

Electric cars are good for both aggressive driving (lots acceleration and brake use), and also for energy-efficient driving (almost no use of brakes, slow down by converting speed back to electricity). I wonder which one dominates in city driving in practice?