Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A suicide crisis among veterinarians

bbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

371–380 of 463 posts

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#371

Post by raffraffraff »

Exuma wrote: post #207
heyoni wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think one of the worst things about society right now is we don’t share the burden amongst ourselves. The dirty work so to speak is delegated to specialists and our hands stay completely clean. I’m not saying pet owners should euthanize their animals but staying there in the room while the vet did their work probably helped, and the article mentions that owners leaving is part of the problem.

One of my favorite cats has a bad tumor and a 3 month expected life span. I found out a few days ago. I’m shattered and the thought of having to be in the room or not is just super depressing. I’ve never lost a pet before or even someone very close to me. I’m scared for how bad it’s going to hurt Part of me (most of me) wants to be there to feel the pain in the deepest way and not bitch out. To be there for the last…

I've been there several times, and I know I'll have to do it at least 8 more times before I die. I will always have dogs because "I'm a dog person". I love them. I have two greyhounds on my couch right now. (Always two).

3 years ago I had to have lovely Lily put to sleep because she was 14, had bad arthritis, and years of meds had taken their toll. I was sad but I didn't second guess it at all. I gave her a wonderful home, and I doted on her. The last thing to do "for her" was prevent further suffering.

2 years before that, I did it with Zuni, a wonderful, sensitive, intelligent dog. He had lung cancer. He was only 11, but he was already starting to suffer, and I simply couldn't bare to put him through any more. It's easier to deal with your own pain of loss than to watch him slowly deteriorate and wheeze and suffer more every day. No regrets.

5 years before that (yes, I was unlucky) I had to put Pasha to sleep because she had bone cancer. She was 6. My first dog, as an adult with my own home. That was the first time I ever had to make that decision. I was wracked with guilt and worry that I wasn't finding some other way for her to live. I got second and third opinions, scoured the internet looking for novel treatments. I eventually had her put to sleep because she was in so much pain and the vet said "there is nothing you can do, I've seen this a thousand times". My only regret with Pasha is that, in my fear, I failed to do the one thing that was in my power, for her: prevent suffering. That's my only regret.

When you hit 50 and you're on your Nth dog, you don't so much "just go through the motions and then get another dog" when you're dog dies. That makes it seem cold. It's always painful. But these days I accept that I'm "a dog person", and that I'll always have a space in my heart and on my sofa. There are thousands of dogs that need homes right now. And as sad as I'll be when one of these two muppets gets terminal, I'll do the right thing. Then I'll wait a few weeks, and go straight to the pound. It's not cold and mechanical. It doesn't diminish the love I have for these two idiots, or for Lily, Zuni or Pasha. What I've realized is that the two worst things are:

- their pain

- you worrying about their pain

Honestly, while the moment of death is a terrible thing, it's always peaceful. It's always a release.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#372

Post by GlenTheMachine »

hotnfresh wrote: post #131
GlenTheMachine wrote: post #39

My wife is a vet. One big issue is that most people don’t have pet insurance. But they do have medical insurance. As a consequence they are completely surprised by the out-of-pocket costs of medical procedures. Hip surgery (to pick something at random) is hip surgery, even if it’s for a dog. It still costs thousands of dollars. But a significant portion of the population expects to pay what they would pay for insuran…

> But a significant portion of the population expects to pay what they would pay for insurance-covered human surgery, eg a couple hundred dollars at most. Time travelled from the 1990s, or one of the few who’s never had normal middle-class health insurance in the last decade. I haven’t had a plan that wouldn’t put us into at least high-four-figures if anyone gets actually-sick, since the ‘00s. Not even the best-avail…

For some reason, a certain part of humanity thinks that vets should be doing the work just out of kindness, eg free or nearly free. Minor surgery on your dog still requires anesthesia, x-rays, IV fluids, scalpels, etc etc, and those are usually exactly the same supplies as for human surgery. They cost the same.

Also bear in mind that the nature of veterinary practice is different from eg a surgical practice. If you need surgery, you don’t go to “the local surgeon”. You get referred to a hospital or a specialty surgical practice. Ever seen a Yelp review for a heart surgeon? Neither have I.

But if your dog needs surgery, you go to the little vet practice down the street. The vets in that practice are generally exactly the same people you bring your dog to for their shots. They aren’t protected by a layer of administration and lawyers. They get Yelp reviews all the time — very, very bad ones. Death threats. Because they had the temerity to tell a patient that a cardiac bypass on Benji was going to cost $10,000, and the family couldn’t afford it so Benji died.

Vets are in your community in a way that surgeons aren’t. That exposes them to direct abuse to a far greater degree than surgeons.

My wife knows a vet who was sued because an owner claimed that the rabies vaccine “gave the cat autism”. Really.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#373

Post by jncfhnb »

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #328
jncfhnb wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is NOT being written off. It is being paid for. It wouldn’t make any sense otherwise. It would be a lose lose for an animal shelter to receive this deeply fragile animal and the vet to do this expensive surgery for free.

Who do you think is paying $10k for this pup?

The people who get the pup. That is how it works. It’s not going to a shelter.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#374

Post by ndriscoll »

NegativeK wrote: post #358
ndriscoll wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you think everyone should have to make that choice? And that e.g. 4 years for an undergraduate degree isn't enough to become proficient in treating cats (at least for the stuff that's worth treating)?

This thread has become casually dismissive and insulting to the actual work that vets do. Techs (for states that require technician certification, it's a two year degree) do a lot of the work with pets. There's often more than one technician per doctor. That reduces costs. Doctors are still needed because, unsurprisingly, cases can have a lot of nuance that requires significant training to see.

That's fine if people want the best care for their pet, but not everyone is going to care about getting that level of service. I've taken in multiple strays over the years that found their way to me. Shelters where I lived were already overcrowded. The counterfactual was likely that they get hit by a car or caught by the city and euthanized.

I'm sympathetic toward animals, but there's a lot of them that are lucky to have anyone take them in at all, and a lot that aren't that lucky. If someone wants to get an animal some level of care without there being someone with a postgraduate degree to supervise (instead of no care), that sounds like a good thing. They could always be referred to a more qualified vet if needed.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#375

Post by jncfhnb »

pc86 wrote: post #252
jncfhnb wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This study is about Austria and includes data going pretty far back. That being said I can’t find conclusive data elsewhere. Most research doesn’t narrow down to jobs neatly. I’ve found number suggesting suicide rates of 200-400% that of the general pop which is in the same ballpark above and blow. So ymmv.

I don't see any reason why the suicide rate among physicians and/or veterinarians would be wildly different in Austria than any other country, or globally. Even if there was, it'd have to very different to have it eliminate the 2x difference and on top of that actually make physician rates higher than veterinarians by any statistically relevant amount.

Income, cost of living, patient expectations, healthcare culture, debt of schooling, etc.

Idk anything about Austria in these regards either way. But as I said, cursory searches for doctor specific stats put it in the same ballpark as those cited for vets.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#376

Post by herdrick »

maxwell wrote: post #167
rednerrus wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could address each of these points and show how you've taken a narrow, specific stance to focus on the negative things in the world. I could point to hundreds of instances that show your view doesn't accurately represent the current state of the world or accurately place it in the context of history. It doesn't accurately account for the scale of historic cruelty, violence, famine, war, oppression, etc. Steven Pink…

Haha, yeah, I read the book too, no bland autogenerated pap with zero citations necessary. It clouded my worldview and made me complacent and content with my privilege in the early 2010s. The other usual citation here is Hans Rosling. Think any of the 50 million slaves have had the chance to read the erudite works of Steven Pinker? You haven't addressed any of my points, haven't pointed to a single instance of inaccu…

Interesting. Sounds like the HN rules need a new clause, "No accusing other commenters of writing comments using LLMs".

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#377

Post by pas »

chaostheory wrote: post #366
candybar wrote: post #24

We can talk about other negative aspects of being a vet, but the primary factor is that they know how: > But that reality of the job can also colour the way veterinarians view human lives – including their own – and for those already experiencing suicidal ideation, it can provide a simple justification: death is preferable to suffering. In a 2021 survey by pharmaceutical company Merck, 12.5% of the veterinarians surv…

> And nearly half of the respondents were not receiving mental health care. Mental health care is rarely affordable or accessible even in countries with socialized health care systems. I guess that explains the rise of tele mental health sessions via apps, but who would trust them? Privacy is already a big issue, and it’s even more important when it comes to mental health care

are vets not well-paid? (vet services' cost has risen a lot more than human healthcare's, so there's clearly a strong demand, thus a big consumer group willing to pay them)

are they consuming mental health services more/less compared to general population or compared to their zip code?

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#378

Post by stvltvs »

derbOac wrote: post #334
candybar wrote: post #24

We can talk about other negative aspects of being a vet, but the primary factor is that they know how: > But that reality of the job can also colour the way veterinarians view human lives – including their own – and for those already experiencing suicidal ideation, it can provide a simple justification: death is preferable to suffering. In a 2021 survey by pharmaceutical company Merck, 12.5% of the veterinarians surv…

I think this is a dangerous way to approach the problem. Regardless of whether or not the assertion that the "primary factor is they know how", the underlying cause is distress and hopelessness. I'm frustrated a bit by how discussions of suicide — with vets as well as others — tends to focus on making the means less available, as if it just solves the problem. That's a solution for society, to wash their hands of add…

It doesn't need to be either/or. Both aspects are important. If I or someone in my household were experiencing suicidal ideation, I'd remove firearms, for example, from the house while also trying to addressing the underlying causes.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#379

Post by s1artibartfast »

ryaneager wrote: post #338
barkerja wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know how much it costs to maintain and operate an imagining (MRI, X-Ray, etc.) machine? Do you know how much it costs to maintain staff (doctors, techs, office assistants, etc.) As someone that used to think the same way as you, and then got to see other side of the business (my wife is a Veterinarian who runs an urgent care facility) —— it’s easy to think the way you do without seeing the costs incurred on th…

Shouldn’t we as a society front the cost for the services ? I guess, socializing pet care is going to be a far step behind socializing human medicine and that is still a hot topic. There is enough wealth created in our economy to cover these costs, and more, but heaven forbid a company not make more profit this year than last.

What a silly idea. There is nowhere near enough money in the economy to cover these kinds of costs for pets.

Every dollar in the economy is only 70k/person and the government already takes 28k/person.

Why would I ever want to pay exorbitant prices for your pet. I don't even want to do it for mine.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#380

Post by rm_-rf_slash »

WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #294
rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can ask your vet for a home visit. Let them pass in a place that they know is safe and loving.

I was wondering about that. I'd hate to make their last hours full of freakout. I'd most prefer doing the euthanization myself. It feels like something that should be my responsibility.

I fed my pupper the biggest spoonful of peanut butter he’d ever seen, he fell asleep peacefully. When the vet switched to the euthanizing agent, he didn’t move a muscle.
Post reply on HN