A suicide crisis among veterinarians • Hacker News Board

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#171

Post by jncfhnb » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 5:04 PM UTC

somenameforme wrote: post #83

lotsofpulp wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not see any evidence of guilting. > The incident involved a four-month-old German Shepherd puppy who'd swallowed a skewer and needed emergency surgery life-saving surgery. The cost of the complicated procedure and after care was close to $10,000 – more than the owner could afford. As a last resort, to avoid euthanasia, the clinic offered her the option to surrender the puppy to a new owner who could cover the co…

Is a million dollars a reasonable price? The point I make is that you might not be able to tell a reasonable price, per se. But you can generally tell an unreasonable price. It's some x-rays, animal quality anesthesia/meds, and labor. It's hard to see how this reasonably adds up to $10,000. Were time not an issue, they could probably take a trip to Mexico, get the operation done for maybe a few hundred dollars, and c…

> It's some x-rays, animal quality anesthesia/meds, and labor. It's hard to see how this reasonably adds up to $10,000.

You should open a vet office then. Sounds like you’re well equipped to undercut competition and still make a hefty profit!

Or maybe you’re just making things up. Because we’re talking about an emergency open and close surgery to remove what’s probably a long sharp object with puncturing of the stomach. On a small animal. On immediate short notice (cancel everything else!). It’s going to be difficult with multiple doctors. And it’s going to require a lot of post surgery care.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#172

Post by zargon » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 5:04 PM UTC

latchkey wrote: post #121

lowbloodsugar wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have pet medical insurance. It’s about $30/month per pet. If you can’t afford medical costs for your pet then your pet will die if something bad happens. Likewise if you take some magical fairy “society owes me taking care of my pet” then you’re going to be as disappointed as if you walk into a Chanel store and demand a free purse. Pets are a luxury, not a fucking right. It’s not anyone’s job to keep it alive if y…

Check what that insurance actually covers and do the math on it, especially over time (and even factor in current interest rates) and considering total coverage along with deductibles. You might think that you're covered, but in reality you aren't. I couldn't find any insurance that made better sense than just putting $30/mo into a money market account at 5.25%. The way the policies are written, they clearly are ther…

In my specific situation, I would have paid less money with insurance for just the diagnostics, not counting any procedures. (For a 16 year old cat.) Definitely do the math, but emergencies and diseases of old age can become extremely expensive. You may end up never needing it, but if you do, it can really reduce your costs. Personally I now prefer to pay out the $30/month and be covered for costs exceeding that, than to maybe get to keep the $30/month in the end.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#173

Post by wing-_-nuts » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 5:05 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #127

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly, if a vet can, as a matter of practice, afford to do procedures probono but only if the owner surrenders their pet, it means they are making an absolutely staggering profit from those who are emotionally extorted to pay. That is predatory. I miss the days when vets got into the business to run small practices for a reasonable profit and middle class lifestyle. Few of them wanted mercedes money . It's kind of…

You think you should dictate the price of someone else’s labor, and that is less predatory or somehow better than someone being able to price their own labor?

I can't 'dictate' anything. I just think that healthcare, for both humans and animals isn't the place for a 'the price is whatever the market will bear' mentality. That mentality assumes the participation of cool, rational actors. People making healthcare decisions for their family or pets do not fit that criteria. I feel it's immoral to use the love one feels for their pets to extract as much as possible from the owner.

I understand you probably feel differently. Frankly you and I will probably not ever agree on this topic as we have different world views.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#174

Post by giantg2 » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 5:05 PM UTC

heyoni wrote: post #159

oooyay wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was lucky enough to own a house next to the vet clinic that ended up being my first dogs final veterinarian. Her sickness was very gradual; a boil grew on her neck and started aspirating blood, she became anemic, and somewhat lethargic. I supplemented her diet as the vet walked me through everything I could possibly do and was willing to afford. She gave me her number to text when weird things happened with the cav…

I think one of the worst things about society right now is we don’t share the burden amongst ourselves. The dirty work so to speak is delegated to specialists and our hands stay completely clean. I’m not saying pet owners should euthanize their animals but staying there in the room while the vet did their work probably helped, and the article mentions that owners leaving is part of the problem.

I think there are still a number if people who would euthanize their own animals. But to your point, it seems a large part of society has completely detected from the realities of life. How many know what it takes to grow/process food, or butcher an animal for meat, etc? No, that just comes in a package at the store...

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#175

Post by lotsofpulp » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 5:07 PM UTC

mynameisash wrote: post #62

lotsofpulp wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you not see how that would be viewed as insanely predatory? I assume you must be an expert in the cost structure of operating a veterinary practice in that location, at that time, in order to determine a predatory and non predatory price. If you are not, I am not sure how you can make any claim about the prices. >For profit companies should not be involved in human or animal medicine. What kind of quality of li…

* FTC acts against private equity firm's acquisition of veterinary clinics[0] * Private equity is buying everything from vet offices to tech conglomerates [1] I'm not opposed to people making money and having a comfortable life, but the fact that private equity is capitalizing on vet clinics is telling. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31728350 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36313967

Maybe, a local monopoly could be a cause for concern. But is the barrier to start a veterinary practice so high as to grant them a permanent monopoly?

In this specific case being discussed, it does seem the vet business was acquired by a PE company a few years ago:

https://www.mainebiz.biz/article/portland-animal-health-star...

Note that the vet doctors themselves may have ownership in the company itself.

The other option is that advanced surgeries for animals are so costly, and the proportion of people who have the ability to pay so low, that there does not exist sufficient demand for a new vet to want to open a new hospital. In short, pet owners simply cannot afford all the pet healthcare they want.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#176

Post by Scarblac » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 5:07 PM UTC

pydry wrote: post #35

candybar wrote: post #24

We can talk about other negative aspects of being a vet, but the primary factor is that they know how: > But that reality of the job can also colour the way veterinarians view human lives – including their own – and for those already experiencing suicidal ideation, it can provide a simple justification: death is preferable to suffering. In a 2021 survey by pharmaceutical company Merck, 12.5% of the veterinarians surv…

This reminds me of bridge fences being successful at bringing down overall suicide: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2610560/

In the Netherlands there is a problem of suicide by train near mental health institutions.

So they placed fences. That left the nearby crossings where there had to be gaps in the fencing. There they placed "anti walk mats", rubber(?) mats with a pointy surface that's hard (but not impossible) to walk on.

And those two together brought down the number of suicides by a lot.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#177

Post by freedomben » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 5:08 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #112

freedomben wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vets that I've been too (minus a non-profit clinic I went to once) absolutely charge outrageous amounts for saline and other things. It's a hard business, so like most time-of-use sales points they take advantage and charge for the convenience. I'm not making a value judgment, just pointing out that it definitely is something they do.

What is definitely something they do? Asking for higher prices in high demand low supply scenarios? That is something (effectively) everyone does. It is how the world works. It is the mechanism which the markets use to signal more supply of something is needed (or less demand). If you want me to study advanced biology for 10+ years and then have me work at odd hours of the day and night to be ready to perform surgery…

Again, I'm not making a value judgment (as rationalizations from both perspectives can be made, and a person's opinion will depend on their perspective), just saying that "charg[ing] outrageous amounts for saline and other things" is definitely something they do. In a free market system they're allowed to charge whatever they want, and the consumer is allowed to take it or leave it. But explicitly stating the practice is a fair thing to do.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#178

Post by carstenhag » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 5:08 PM UTC

maxwell wrote: post #139

rednerrus wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People spend too much time staring into their phones, consuming simple carbohydrates, and being sedentary. The world is better than it's ever been. We just don't take good care of ourselves.

What are you talking about? Peace in Europe is shattered. The former President of the United States has been indicted multiple times on dozens of felony charges. R&D on the killer bipedal robots + assassination drones + AI from your favorite sci-fi movies is nearing completion. Full Nineteen Eighty-Four -style surveillance totalitarianism has been rolled out in occupied China and is at the pilot stage in most western…

Only commenting on the chocolate, because I don't know much about the rest. There are probably hundreds/thousands of other brands that sell organic chocolate.

I checked the chocolate bars I buy in Germany - 1&2: FairTrade, 3: Rainforest Alliance, 4: organic, "fair trade" without label. Many chocolate bars have the country name on it where the beans grew, for example "Edelbitter Perú 78%". I am pretty sure you can find dozens of similar ones in the US.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#179

Post by jncfhnb » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 5:08 PM UTC

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #58

vector_spaces wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it like that though? Like what are the economics of performing the procedure that it's possible for it to be free if the owner gives it up? Does someone different ultimately foot the bill?

I can't see it as anything other than emotional extortion. It's not like the animal shelter is paying for that care. It's being written off, and the reason it's being written off is they make so much from the owners that do pay they can afford to do so.

It is NOT being written off. It is being paid for.

It wouldn’t make any sense otherwise. It would be a lose lose for an animal shelter to receive this deeply fragile animal and the vet to do this expensive surgery for free.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#180

Post by fishyjoe » Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 5:08 PM UTC

rcarr wrote: post #165

fishyjoe wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not downvote you. It's barely related to the article because it is about suicide and you come in to tell an anecdote about how funny you find it that they use a certain word. Just completely tone-deaf. It's the word they use, nothing funny about it, and an article about suicide among vets is not the place for it. People having different viewpoints does not make you immune to criticism. You could just not talk,…

Complete horseshit. This isn't someone's funeral - it's a discussion forum. And even if it was a funeral, some people will crack jokes at them because that's how they cope. Do you think no-one told a joke at George Carlin's funeral? Do you think that soldiers don't crack jokes in the trenches because "it's not the appropriate place"? I'm absolutely fine with having my viewpoints criticised, what I'm not fine with is…

> five down votes in the space of a minute

How did you even notice this? Get off the computer, it's clearly not doing your mental health any favors. You seem very unhinged. Ranting at groups due to perceived persecution and calling them "fucking militant" is not decent behavior.

> Do you think no-one told a joke at George Carlin's funeral? The comedian? Yeah he's a comedian, I would expect jokes to be told at his funeral.