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A suicide crisis among veterinarians

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Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#51

Post by watwut »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #32
wing-_-nuts wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hoping someone will pay for a procedure to save their pet's life while being braced for "I guess we should put them down..." I'm sorry, but vet costs are completely out of whack with reality these days. The truth of the matter is that most people cannot justify spending thousands of dollars on a pet, no matter how much they are loved, and that DOES NOT make them bad or unfit owners. The story quoted $10k to remove…

> Can you not see how that would be viewed as insanely predatory? I assume you must be an expert in the cost structure of operating a veterinary practice in that location, at that time, in order to determine a predatory and non predatory price. If you are not, I am not sure how you can make any claim about the prices. >For profit companies should not be involved in human or animal medicine. What kind of quality of li…

Non predatory thing then is to help the owner to put the pet down painlessly and quickly for reasonable price. Without guilting the owner into 10000 operation.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#52

Post by watwut »

9991 wrote: post #33
wing-_-nuts wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hoping someone will pay for a procedure to save their pet's life while being braced for "I guess we should put them down..." I'm sorry, but vet costs are completely out of whack with reality these days. The truth of the matter is that most people cannot justify spending thousands of dollars on a pet, no matter how much they are loved, and that DOES NOT make them bad or unfit owners. The story quoted $10k to remove…

> no matter how much they are loved I don't buy it. If their kid needed a couple thousand dollars to live, a lot more people would be able to scrounge it up. If they can't do the same for their pet, maybe they actually do love their pet less ... and that's OK.

Emotional attachment does not mean that human is not able to do rational decision. No matter how deep I love my dog, I do not have the same responsibility toward him then toward my child.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#53

Post by lotsofpulp »

watwut wrote: post #51
lotsofpulp wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you not see how that would be viewed as insanely predatory? I assume you must be an expert in the cost structure of operating a veterinary practice in that location, at that time, in order to determine a predatory and non predatory price. If you are not, I am not sure how you can make any claim about the prices. >For profit companies should not be involved in human or animal medicine. What kind of quality of li…

Non predatory thing then is to help the owner to put the pet down painlessly and quickly for reasonable price. Without guilting the owner into 10000 operation.

I do not see any evidence of guilting.

> The incident involved a four-month-old German Shepherd puppy who'd swallowed a skewer and needed emergency surgery life-saving surgery. The cost of the complicated procedure and after care was close to $10,000 – more than the owner could afford. As a last resort, to avoid euthanasia, the clinic offered her the option to surrender the puppy to a new owner who could cover the cost.

What is a reasonable price? Unless someone is familiar with pricing from multiple vendors for some period of time, how could one know a reasonable price?

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#54

Post by watwut »

makeitdouble wrote: post #27
wing-_-nuts wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hoping someone will pay for a procedure to save their pet's life while being braced for "I guess we should put them down..." I'm sorry, but vet costs are completely out of whack with reality these days. The truth of the matter is that most people cannot justify spending thousands of dollars on a pet, no matter how much they are loved, and that DOES NOT make them bad or unfit owners. The story quoted $10k to remove…

> The truth of the matter is that most people cannot justify spending thousands of dollars on a pet, no matter how much they are loved, and that DOES NOT make them bad or unfit owners. I'd argue not having the means to deal with emergency situations would make someone unfit to own a pet. I get that circumstances can change and costs increase, but I also feel too many people assume a pet doesn't cost much or isn't muc…

Or we accept that sometimes pets die and that if the operation costs 10000 then fit owner can still decide for the pet to die.

That goes for fish, dogs or tarantulas.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#55

Post by sjsdaiuasgdia »

londons_explore wrote: post #13
the_gipsy wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like you met a bunch of junkies that are so determined that they picked their career around drug-access.

Maybe I'm just unlucky, but I have met 4 vets now, all in different walks of life (yoga class, my rock climbing buddies, an ex-colleague who did a career change, and a cousin), and all of them have at least experimented with animal drugs... Hard to believe it isn't widespread in the industry.

You replied to a post about why vets choose to be vets with "most of them like the fact they get unsupervised access to the drug cabinet and they love the ketamine.."

When challenged, you mention 4 vets you know. You say they've all at least experimented with animal drugs. What portion of the 4 said that was a reason for them to become vets? What portion did more than "at least experiment"? Do either of those represent a majority share of your sample? TBH, I think you would have phrased it differently if they did...

What is it about this small sample which is still influenced by your location, social class, education, etc that makes it representative of all vets?

Just wanted to note the wide gulf between your original reply and where you retreated.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#56

Post by stef25 »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #32
wing-_-nuts wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hoping someone will pay for a procedure to save their pet's life while being braced for "I guess we should put them down..." I'm sorry, but vet costs are completely out of whack with reality these days. The truth of the matter is that most people cannot justify spending thousands of dollars on a pet, no matter how much they are loved, and that DOES NOT make them bad or unfit owners. The story quoted $10k to remove…

> Can you not see how that would be viewed as insanely predatory? I assume you must be an expert in the cost structure of operating a veterinary practice in that location, at that time, in order to determine a predatory and non predatory price. If you are not, I am not sure how you can make any claim about the prices. >For profit companies should not be involved in human or animal medicine. What kind of quality of li…

How much of that 10K would be Mercedes money ?

It goes without saying that a vet should have higher than average income considering the length and cost of study and responsibility etc. Not at all trying to say that they're greedy.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#57

Post by ryandrake »

chamakits wrote: post #25

When I was young, the first profession I said I wanted to be was a Vet. I was obsessed with it. I loved all animals, but dogs the most. Still do. Over the years of having my own pets at some point I realized I would be dealing with animals in their worst condition. Sick, injured, and suffering. I knew I would be bonding with animals I would rarely see and maybe even be responsible for putting them to sleep when the t…

> When I was young, the first profession I said I wanted to be was a Vet. I was obsessed with it. I loved all animals, but dogs the most.

Same with my 10 year old. We had a nice "what do you want to be when you grow up" conversation in the car the other day and of course she decided she'd be a veterinarian because she loves animals. I don't want to be Mr. Negative Dad or discourage anything, but we had a "let's think about that for a minute" talk and she figured out the unpleasant side of the idea pretty quickly.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#58

Post by wing-_-nuts »

vector_spaces wrote: post #30
Dig1t wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and then pressured the owner give the pup up when they couldn't afford that My wife is a vet and I hear about this often. From the vet's perspective, if the owner gives up the puppy then they don't have to put the puppy down. Putting down a puppy is heart-wrenching. You can't give out free medical care, she regularly gives as many discounts as she's allowed to give away, even some she's not supposed to, especially f…

Why is it like that though? Like what are the economics of performing the procedure that it's possible for it to be free if the owner gives it up? Does someone different ultimately foot the bill?

I can't see it as anything other than emotional extortion. It's not like the animal shelter is paying for that care. It's being written off, and the reason it's being written off is they make so much from the owners that do pay they can afford to do so.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#59

Post by protastus »

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #16
Fomite wrote: post #4

I work in a veterinary school, and it's remarkable to see how worn down veterinarians are compared to my colleagues in "people medicine" (and my comparison group are infectious disease folks - they're not exactly a cheerful group). To be honest, at this point, between how hard it is to get into vet school, the debt load, and how you're signing up for crushing compassion fatigue your whole life, and a career of hoping…

> hoping someone will pay for a procedure to save their pet's life while being braced for "I guess we should put them down..." I'm sorry, but vet costs are completely out of whack with reality these days. The truth of the matter is that most people cannot justify spending thousands of dollars on a pet, no matter how much they are loved, and that DOES NOT make them bad or unfit owners. The story quoted $10k to remove…

I have yet to see evidence that it's out of whack. Vets are are doctors, have to employ staff, and have training, processes and tools analogous to human medicine.

There's no vet industrial complex, so no administrative/insurance/legal parasitic overhead like in human medicine (in the US).

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#60

Post by philomath_mn »

candybar wrote: post #48
pydry wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminds me of bridge fences being successful at bringing down overall suicide: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2610560/

Yup, suicidal attempts are often impulsive, so any barrier (in this case literally) even if it's relatively easy to get around, reduces suicide rates. Here's another study, this time on firearms: https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/06/handgun-owner... > The researchers found that people who owned handguns had rates of suicide that were nearly four times higher than people living in the same neighborhood who d…

I think about this a lot with my brother. He took his life in the alleyway behind the gun shop where he just bought the ammo -- I have no idea what his mental state was (estranged from family for many years) but I have to think there was some impulsive decision-making involved.
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