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A suicide crisis among veterinarians

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Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#331

Post by derbOac »

SiliconCowboy wrote: post #225

(edits to fix grammar) Having been the son of a veterinarian, I'll provide my perspective: * Veterinarians get into their career because of their love of animals and wanting to take care of them. Working with their owners can be a positive or negative. * They are limited by what information they can get out of their patients. Example, A dog not wagging its tail could be due to it being scared or internal pain. Dogs i…

I was listening to an interview program several months ago about suicide in veterinarians and they spent quite a bit of time talking — not all of the time, or even most of the time, but more than I thought — about takeovers of vet clinics by private equity firms. Basically they were saying that older veterinarians will get an offer from a private equity firm, sell the practice to them, and then retire early, and the stress on the remaining practitioners would go up.

It seems like this pattern might not apply everywhere (or might), that the problems are broader than the US.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#332

Post by snapetom »

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #16
Fomite wrote: post #4

I work in a veterinary school, and it's remarkable to see how worn down veterinarians are compared to my colleagues in "people medicine" (and my comparison group are infectious disease folks - they're not exactly a cheerful group). To be honest, at this point, between how hard it is to get into vet school, the debt load, and how you're signing up for crushing compassion fatigue your whole life, and a career of hoping…

> hoping someone will pay for a procedure to save their pet's life while being braced for "I guess we should put them down..." I'm sorry, but vet costs are completely out of whack with reality these days. The truth of the matter is that most people cannot justify spending thousands of dollars on a pet, no matter how much they are loved, and that DOES NOT make them bad or unfit owners. The story quoted $10k to remove…

Ridiculous entitled view. At minimum, vets have to do undergrad + four years of vet school. If you find a board certified vet, they will have gone through 1-2 years of internships, and another 2-3 years of a residency, plus board exams. Technicians in many US states have to at least have an AA degree, but the competition is such that many have Bachelors these days. I know of a few that even have Masters.

And a lot of drugs are re-purposed from human medicine. Syringes, IVs, antibiotics. The manufacturers are not giving vets a discount just because it's being used in a rabbit. You just never see those prices for yourself because insurance hides it. The vets have to pass it on to you because their business is not a charity.

If you don't want top quality care for your pet and you don't value the skill and knowledge of a trained professional, there's plenty of bargain basement vets that are willing to cut corners.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#333

Post by hotpotamus »

Firmwarrior wrote: post #329
ang_cire wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have no clue how much tax cuts out at higher income rates.

Man, this thread is a mess There are a lot of people on this very site making 500k+ pre-tax. You're going to be taking home 300ish after taxes in that case, and it's not entirely unreasonable to "only" have 150ish for savings/investments/disposable income after your housing and living costs are taken out of that If someone has $12k+ to spend per month and won't spend $10k to save their pet's life, they're an asshole…

I agree that people complaining about the higher tax brackets are oblivious at best, but I'll add that there's no income test to post here. I feel like I do OK (especially given that I have a job that doesn't require the sale of my soul), but it's far from 500K lol.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#334

Post by derbOac »

candybar wrote: post #24

We can talk about other negative aspects of being a vet, but the primary factor is that they know how: > But that reality of the job can also colour the way veterinarians view human lives – including their own – and for those already experiencing suicidal ideation, it can provide a simple justification: death is preferable to suffering. In a 2021 survey by pharmaceutical company Merck, 12.5% of the veterinarians surv…

I think this is a dangerous way to approach the problem. Regardless of whether or not the assertion that the "primary factor is they know how", the underlying cause is distress and hopelessness.

I'm frustrated a bit by how discussions of suicide — with vets as well as others — tends to focus on making the means less available, as if it just solves the problem. That's a solution for society, to wash their hands of addressing the underling problems, and not a solution for the person suffering.

Veterinarians should be in a position where they don't want to commit suicide, regardless of whether they have the means.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#335

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

vjk800 wrote: post #232
candybar wrote: post #24

We can talk about other negative aspects of being a vet, but the primary factor is that they know how: > But that reality of the job can also colour the way veterinarians view human lives – including their own – and for those already experiencing suicidal ideation, it can provide a simple justification: death is preferable to suffering. In a 2021 survey by pharmaceutical company Merck, 12.5% of the veterinarians surv…

> What often stops otherwise suicidal folks is that it's not an easy thing to do Is the take away from this that if all people knew how to kill themselves efficiently, the suicide rates in general population would be as high as they are among vets? It's pretty grim to think that the only thing that's stopping many people from killings themselves is that they don't know how...

I wouldn't be surprised.

I had an gf who was bipolar and suffering from PTSD and was on meds for those conditions and also due to previous suicide attempts.

I remember one conversation after we had broken up when she told me how depressed she had been and I said, "well at least you haven't offed yourself."

She smiled a bit and said, "I tried to kill myself three times in the last two months. I guess I'm not very good at it."

Answering the begged question: twenty+ years later and last time I checked she was still alive and well.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#336

Post by [deleted] »

buildsjets wrote: post #259
johnla wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dark comedic thought: if a prerequisite to suicide is to get your affairs in order and leave behind a clean house, suicide would be very low; ugh, too lazy to clean. I'll just live instead.

I always wanted to die clean and pretty But I'd be too busy on working days So I am relieved that the turbulence wasn't forecasted I couldn't have changed anyways I am relieved that I'd left my room tidy Goodbye

[deleted]

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#337

Post by Dig1t »

vector_spaces wrote: post #30
Dig1t wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and then pressured the owner give the pup up when they couldn't afford that My wife is a vet and I hear about this often. From the vet's perspective, if the owner gives up the puppy then they don't have to put the puppy down. Putting down a puppy is heart-wrenching. You can't give out free medical care, she regularly gives as many discounts as she's allowed to give away, even some she's not supposed to, especially f…

Why is it like that though? Like what are the economics of performing the procedure that it's possible for it to be free if the owner gives it up? Does someone different ultimately foot the bill?

At my wife’s clinic they have shelters that pay for the procedure on condition of taking the animal.

Like there is a shelter in the city that will pay for medical bill and take the dog.

I do sort of see the logic. Part of responsible pet ownership is being able to keep your animal alive and healthy, if you don’t have the resources to do that then you maybe aren’t ready to be a pet owner. They make insurance to cover this exact thing, called pet insurance. If you can’t afford to have pet insurance and you can’t afford to pay for the medical bills then you can’t afford to have a pet. There are other people who will provide the care that the animal needs, but at that point they will become the owner.

I understand that this sounds heartless WRT the owner, I didn’t make these rules this is just how it works at my wife’s clinic and that’s the justification I have heard from the shelter and the company that owns the clinic.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#338

Post by ryaneager »

barkerja wrote: post #317
wing-_-nuts wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hoping someone will pay for a procedure to save their pet's life while being braced for "I guess we should put them down..." I'm sorry, but vet costs are completely out of whack with reality these days. The truth of the matter is that most people cannot justify spending thousands of dollars on a pet, no matter how much they are loved, and that DOES NOT make them bad or unfit owners. The story quoted $10k to remove…

Do you know how much it costs to maintain and operate an imagining (MRI, X-Ray, etc.) machine? Do you know how much it costs to maintain staff (doctors, techs, office assistants, etc.) As someone that used to think the same way as you, and then got to see other side of the business (my wife is a Veterinarian who runs an urgent care facility) —— it’s easy to think the way you do without seeing the costs incurred on th…

Shouldn’t we as a society front the cost for the services ? I guess, socializing pet care is going to be a far step behind socializing human medicine and that is still a hot topic.

There is enough wealth created in our economy to cover these costs, and more, but heaven forbid a company not make more profit this year than last.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#339

Post by xwdv »

I honestly think veterinarians should just be a luxury for richer people who want to spend extravagant amounts on healthcare for their pets.

If you’re a common person, and your pet gets some illness, then that’s it: you need to expect your pet’s death if they aren’t able to recover naturally or cheap treatments and pills don’t work.

Pet surgeries should not be some routine thing that should be expected to be affordable for everyone.

I know someone who spent close to $10k on her dogs cancer treatment, on top of being broke and in debt already. End result was as expected, the dog died anyway and she is now poorer. Worse, she ended up getting a new dog anyway to keep digging into a financial hole.

Pets man, they are worse than kids. Like toddlers that never grow up.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#340

Post by snapetom »

GlenTheMachine wrote: post #39

My wife is a vet. One big issue is that most people don’t have pet insurance. But they do have medical insurance. As a consequence they are completely surprised by the out-of-pocket costs of medical procedures. Hip surgery (to pick something at random) is hip surgery, even if it’s for a dog. It still costs thousands of dollars. But a significant portion of the population expects to pay what they would pay for insuran…

And the cost of everything of the surgery - IVs, antibiotics, catheters, testing reagents, syringes, needles, are usually the same items used in human medicine. Vets don't get a discount on this.

You just don't see that a bag of saline solution is $100 if you go into surgery because your insurance pays it. Meanwhile, the vet has to pass the $100 to you.

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