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A suicide crisis among veterinarians

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Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#71

Post by [deleted] »

candybar wrote: post #48
pydry wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminds me of bridge fences being successful at bringing down overall suicide: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2610560/

Yup, suicidal attempts are often impulsive, so any barrier (in this case literally) even if it's relatively easy to get around, reduces suicide rates. Here's another study, this time on firearms: https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/06/handgun-owner... > The researchers found that people who owned handguns had rates of suicide that were nearly four times higher than people living in the same neighborhood who d…

[deleted]

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#72

Post by wing-_-nuts »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #32
wing-_-nuts wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hoping someone will pay for a procedure to save their pet's life while being braced for "I guess we should put them down..." I'm sorry, but vet costs are completely out of whack with reality these days. The truth of the matter is that most people cannot justify spending thousands of dollars on a pet, no matter how much they are loved, and that DOES NOT make them bad or unfit owners. The story quoted $10k to remove…

> Can you not see how that would be viewed as insanely predatory? I assume you must be an expert in the cost structure of operating a veterinary practice in that location, at that time, in order to determine a predatory and non predatory price. If you are not, I am not sure how you can make any claim about the prices. >For profit companies should not be involved in human or animal medicine. What kind of quality of li…

Frankly, if a vet can, as a matter of practice, afford to do procedures probono but only if the owner surrenders their pet, it means they are making an absolutely staggering profit from those who are emotionally extorted to pay. That is predatory.

I miss the days when vets got into the business to run small practices for a reasonable profit and middle class lifestyle. Few of them wanted mercedes money . It's kind of gross to think modern vet medicine is making vast sums off of pet owner's worst days.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#73

Post by stainablesteel »

the medical professions in general suffer under the cult of compassion, its not surprising that they have too much put on their shoulders. they're not being treated like people but are the parts of our societies that are forced to be the most compassionate to anyone else.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#74

Post by freedomben »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #42
datameta wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wholeheartedly disagree. After seeing the prices of basics like saline in hospitals, I'm not surprised to learn of inflated prices obfuscated from the general public.

That one is obvious due to us knowing the hospitals sell to the government and insurers for much less. As far as I am aware, this does not apply to a veterinary business. The article also says it was $10k for emergency services at a vet hospital, including the aftercare. What are the labor costs of having highly qualified people, presumably in low supply, on call to provide these services? What are the costs of suppl…

The vets that I've been too (minus a non-profit clinic I went to once) absolutely charge outrageous amounts for saline and other things. It's a hard business, so like most time-of-use sales points they take advantage and charge for the convenience. I'm not making a value judgment, just pointing out that it definitely is something they do.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#75

Post by Dig1t »

vector_spaces wrote: post #30
Dig1t wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and then pressured the owner give the pup up when they couldn't afford that My wife is a vet and I hear about this often. From the vet's perspective, if the owner gives up the puppy then they don't have to put the puppy down. Putting down a puppy is heart-wrenching. You can't give out free medical care, she regularly gives as many discounts as she's allowed to give away, even some she's not supposed to, especially f…

Why is it like that though? Like what are the economics of performing the procedure that it's possible for it to be free if the owner gives it up? Does someone different ultimately foot the bill?

You can do this a few times, and sometimes they do actually just do the procedure for free and the owner gets to keep the animal. But it does not scale. As soon as it becomes a rule then it becomes abused. One thing you realize quickly when running a clinic that deals with the public is any rule/policy that can be abused, WILL be abused. People try all kinds of tricks to not pay for their bills. And the clinic has to fight a constant battle with Yelp reviews as well, which greatly affect their business. If someone gets free treatment for one animal but not another they will destroy the business with Yelp reviews.

You get a wide range of clients at a vet clinic, some people are very nice and deal honestly, but there are a ton of people out there, I would say they are "less than savory" characters who recklessly adopt a lot of pets (like 5 dogs, 5 cats, and no money to pay for any bills) and will abuse these policies all day.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#76

Post by I_Am_Nous »

philomath_mn wrote: post #60
candybar wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, suicidal attempts are often impulsive, so any barrier (in this case literally) even if it's relatively easy to get around, reduces suicide rates. Here's another study, this time on firearms: https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/06/handgun-owner... > The researchers found that people who owned handguns had rates of suicide that were nearly four times higher than people living in the same neighborhood who d…

I think about this a lot with my brother. He took his life in the alleyway behind the gun shop where he just bought the ammo -- I have no idea what his mental state was (estranged from family for many years) but I have to think there was some impulsive decision-making involved.

I'm sorry to hear about your brother :( depression can be very much like torture. Some people can last for a long time before they will do/say anything to make it stop, but without help eventually it will wear you down until you don't value your life anymore and the promise of a "quick, painless end" via gunshot is hard to resist when you are too deep. Add in any kind of extra stress like drug addiction or trauma and it very quickly becomes too much.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#77

Post by wing-_-nuts »

protastus wrote: post #59
wing-_-nuts wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hoping someone will pay for a procedure to save their pet's life while being braced for "I guess we should put them down..." I'm sorry, but vet costs are completely out of whack with reality these days. The truth of the matter is that most people cannot justify spending thousands of dollars on a pet, no matter how much they are loved, and that DOES NOT make them bad or unfit owners. The story quoted $10k to remove…

I have yet to see evidence that it's out of whack. Vets are are doctors, have to employ staff, and have training, processes and tools analogous to human medicine. There's no vet industrial complex, so no administrative/insurance/legal parasitic overhead like in human medicine (in the US).

>There's no vet industrial complex, so no administrative/insurance/legal parasitic overhead like in human medicine (in the US).

You obviously haven't seen where private equity has been buying up private vet practices

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#78

Post by NoMoreNicksLeft »

wholinator2 wrote: post #47
NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I'm sorry you have not yet or are not able to experience the unconditional love of a loyal and caring non human companion. Someone who is always excited to see you. Say, some day your wife or husband dies and leaves you in an empty house your children have long moved out of. You wake up every day thinking of everything you've lost and begin to recluse, especially after your retirement. The house is empty, the people…

> I'm sorry you have not yet or are not able to experience the unconditional love of a loyal and caring

I'm an adult. I'm supposed to give that sort of love, not receive it. That's one of the reasons I have children.

Receiving it is for children.

> You think that person is a low life? You think that person is a caveman who should just die alone?

I think they're someone who can't afford $150/month in pet food.

> I hope you find some someday so you can understand they unadulterated joy

Why would you hope that I'm unsalvageably childish?

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#79

Post by reisse »

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #10
NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #8

> One of the most common criticisms veterinarians receive is that they're greedy. Doctors and staff are often asked to give discounts or waive fees, and owners can get upset when the answer is no. Clearly, we need universal pet health care.

I know you're joking, but it wouldn't hurt to have a nationwide nonprofit pet insurance offering.

That'd be literally putting out fire of exorbitant vet costs with taxpayers money gasoline.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#80

Post by freedomben »

protastus wrote: post #59
wing-_-nuts wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hoping someone will pay for a procedure to save their pet's life while being braced for "I guess we should put them down..." I'm sorry, but vet costs are completely out of whack with reality these days. The truth of the matter is that most people cannot justify spending thousands of dollars on a pet, no matter how much they are loved, and that DOES NOT make them bad or unfit owners. The story quoted $10k to remove…

I have yet to see evidence that it's out of whack. Vets are are doctors, have to employ staff, and have training, processes and tools analogous to human medicine. There's no vet industrial complex, so no administrative/insurance/legal parasitic overhead like in human medicine (in the US).

No, but costs are artificially higher than they need to be because the government restricts who can go into business by requiring advanced degrees, and the schools that provide those degrees make a lot of money doing so. It's certainly not an industrial complex anywhere near that of people medicine, but it's definitely out of whack thanks to regulatory burdens.
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