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Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

theguardian.com

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Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#51

Post by paddim8 »

paganel wrote: post #3
teddyh wrote: post #2

Another article in English: https://www.thelocal.se/20231010/stockholm-to-ban-petrol-and... > Maps here: https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/stockholm/bensin-och-diese... > and here: https://www.dn.se/sverige/bensin-och-dieselbilar-forbjuds-i-... >. Note that the area is comparatively tiny ; 180 000m² according to some articles, closer to 200 000m² according to my measurements – but in any case smaller than 50 acres. O…

I see they went with the "think of the children": > The study found that children who grow up on roads in the capital with particularly high emissions have worse-than-average lung capacity when compared to other children, from as early as six months old. This will only accelerate the move to the suburbs of the families having children themselves and who can't yet afford an EV, leaving the cities themselves (as I susp…

You don't need a car in central stockholm. Poor people wouldn't even have a petrol car. Public transport is much cheaper and highly convenient.

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#52

Post by robertlagrant »

hef19898 wrote: post #30
paganel wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, saw them in American movies. I've also heard about the "busing kids in" policy that didn't work, also from the States. Try to put your 10-year old kid on public transport half-away across the city in any big European city, especially after the sun is out in the winter.

You mean like basically all kids in Munich do, just as an example? Regarding this "better school" thing, that seems to be an almost exclusive US problem.

> that seems to be an almost exclusive US problem

On what basis?

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#53

Post by hef19898 »

paganel wrote: post #23
poniko wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally people with children dont live in the center of Stockholm and a high % already drive electric. Biggest change is that delivery/transport services have to find alternatives and Im really happy about that, everyone benifit from removing "heavy loud polluting traffic" in the city.

> Generally people with children dont live in the center of Stockholm and a high % already drive electri So I guess the process was already under way, as it already is too expensive to have a typical Western life in downtown-ish Stockholm. I fail to see how moves like this one would help with those expenses.

So, Stockholm is a modern vity, O hope we can agree on that. Also, Sweden, and thus Stockholm, is in the West, making Stockholm a modern, western city. And it seems people in Stockholm are not living in abysmal conditions. Meaning everyone living in Stockholm right now is living a "modern, western lifestyle", by definition. It is, of course, an urban one, but there are more ways than one living ypur life. And nobody is trying to take that away from you or anyone else.

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#54

Post by paddim8 »

Nullabillity wrote: post #8

Maybe focus on building out a competent public transport system first, rather than halving the capacity of the commuter rail. Or fix the several islands (both literal and metaphorical) that are effectively cut off from the main system. It's like these people live in a parallel reality where nobody needs to get in our out of the inner city.

Stockholm has great public transport?

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#55

Post by thebiss »

ecmascript wrote: post #36

As a Swede born and raised in Stockholm but no longer live there I wonder if delivery trucks and people working (carpenters etc) will be excempt from these rules? This is a serious question because the changes comes (mainly) from a radical left wing political party that had deliveries on the subway as a serious solution to banning car traffic. Personally I don't really care since I don't live in Stockholm anymore but…

The article indicates there will be some exceptions:

> While it is primarily intended to allow for only fully electric cars, bigger vans with plug-in hybrid engines will also be allowed, and exceptions will be made for ambulances and police cars, as well as cars in which the driver or passenger has a documented disability

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#56

Post by londons_explore »

hanniabu wrote: post #49
londons_explore wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty expensive for the city to do that. Tons of signage needs to be removed and replaced with every expansion, and if you choose automated enforcement you need to install lots of new cameras and posts too. Easier to start with one big zone over the whole city, and keep making the requirements stricter automatically. Eg. Take the cars age, add the current year, subtract the cars rated mpg, add 10 if it's a dies…

> Easier to start with one big zone over the whole city, and keep making the requirements stricter automatically. Good luck getting your average person to not only understand this but being able to actually do the calculations. And it'll be impossible to enforce efficiently.

No need for everyone to understand. "Whats your registration number?" "The computer says you can drive that till 2026."

It can either be enforced at registration renewal (Put a star on the reg plate to indicate they're allowed in the city), or by ANPR cameras on the main roads in/out of the city.

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#58

Post by qwytw »

pera wrote: post #21

I think it's absolutely crazy that our society is OK with car drivers polluting the air with carcinogenic particles. I hope more cities around the world implement similar bans soon.

EVs are not the solution for that, brake and tire wear contribute to as much or more PM2.5 and 2-3 times more PM10 pollution than modern ICEs. Also while there will be some improvement it will be possibly partially outweighed by the fact the EVs generally weight more.

Of course we can just ignore that which is not at all crazy...

Edit: I'm certainly not using this as argument to not ban ICE vehicles in city centers. However switching to EVs is not a good longterm solution. e.g. there won't be any incentives for massively increasing investment into public transport because everyone can just drive a "clean" EV.

*I'm not saying that brake and tire wear is that much higher for EVs, rather that if we only look at ICE vehicles tires/breaks are as big a source of PM 2.5 as the engine itself.

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#59

Post by verisimi »

The people in nordic countries seem so naive to me. They trust their governments, their authorities to do this stuff, to both determine the greater good and then implement it. The political class couldn't possibly act immorally, for their own benefit, apparently.

Whereas the reality is that these actions are preplanned internationally and designed (by opaque agencies such the club of Rome and the UN) in order for individuals to have less control over their lives - shifting that control to the governance structure. Did anyone discuss the transfer of control, agree to it, vote on it?

It's quite amazing to me that people are going to lose freedom of movement, will pay more etc and be happy to do so. Turkeys voting for Christmas.

Re: Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

#60

Post by morelisp »

ecmascript wrote: post #36

As a Swede born and raised in Stockholm but no longer live there I wonder if delivery trucks and people working (carpenters etc) will be excempt from these rules? This is a serious question because the changes comes (mainly) from a radical left wing political party that had deliveries on the subway as a serious solution to banning car traffic. Personally I don't really care since I don't live in Stockholm anymore but…

Why can carpenters not drive electric vehicles?
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