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USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

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Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#221

Post by LoganDark »

notyourwork wrote: post #195
hellotheretoday wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint: I knew a few people awhile back that wrecked FireWire audio gear because they forced the connecter in backward and powered it on Even now i do a small repair shop as a side business. Broken hdmi connectors because someone forced the connector in upside down isn’t exactly common but it’s not exactly rare either. Some people think stuff really needs to be forced together, apparently

> isn’t exactly common but it’s not exactly rare either. Using electronics needs a drivers license like equivalent. Some people shouldn't have access to them if getting an HDMI connector wrong is an issue.

> Using electronics needs a drivers license like equivalent.

I bet everyone seriously wishes there were a "seriously honestly just not a fucking idiot" license. The fact that we know which way a connector goes puts us in a whole different league from the rest of the population; most people are so braindead stupid that they can't even fathom being smarter. Sometimes I wonder if being neurodivergent is even worth it. Do I even want the privilege of knowing enough of the bare minimum to outclass half the Earth, if it means that I'm constantly depressed by how stupid everyone else is?

BTW I wouldn't pass a graduation exam if my life depended on it, because my brain is not a textbook database of things that I don't care about. But that just means my ADHD has gotten the better of me.

Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#222

Post by worksonmine »

nubinetwork wrote: post #4

I've seen people try to connect ps/2 and vga cables upside down, and mash all the pins in the process. I'm fine with flipping a USB cable over a couple times until it goes in. /shrug

I just touch the connector to find the void. It always goes down and this trick never failed me. I have no problem plugging in USB on the first try even in the dark.

Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#223

Post by IshKebab »

Ajedi32 wrote: post #74
lesuorac wrote: post #13

I know everybody is still on the high from USB-C but I'm still going to go on the record it will be one of the biggest disasters in cable history. 1) There's going to be video-only cables; low-voltage only cables; etc and this time everything is usb-c so you can literally only tell which ables work by testing all of the dozen cables instead of the 1-2 USB-As you have. 2) The connector is symmetrical but the pins aren…

I had to do a double take after reading this comment to make sure I wasn't reading an old thread from 2014 or something. USB-C has been out for years now and neither of these predictions have come to pass. Your comment aged poorly before you even finished writing it. USB-C isn't without its problems, but neither of those are one of them.

I used a Bluetooth analyser once that had a USB-C connector that only plugged in one way. It had a dedicated "wrong way around" LED to tell you to rotate it.

Kind of hilarious. It's the only example I've ever seen though so not a real problem IMO.

The cables issue is real, but I don't really see the alternative. Would everyone really be happier if all USB-C cables had to be expensive thick 40 Gb/s 100W cables? No.

Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#224

Post by a1369209993 »

lxgr wrote: post #198
postmodest wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least PS/2 cables were mostly made with "keyed" rubber jackets where one side was flat and the other rounded, so in the dark you could tell which way was up. (Though, that keyboard and mouse were different ports was stupid, so it loses points there)

Never have I been able to successfully plug a PS/2 port in by haptics alone. I can totally see how they were designed to theoretically allow for it; practically, the tactile feedback for the correct orientation is just way too subtle. And regarding the two different ports: I can't remember (or rather, I was never motivated to revisit the plugs once connected to experiment, since it was such a pain) – was there a tech…

> was there a technical reason for that, or could modern mainboards/BIOSes/OSes detect and correct for that?

IIRC, there was a technical reason in that original mainboards lacked the circuitry to detect and correct for it (I think different mouse vs keyboard interrupts were involved?), and it would have been a extra x¢ on the BOM. But modern mainboards just use two of the same circuit and in fact do work fine if you swap them (tested just now, sample size of 1).

Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#225

Post by School-Cotton »

lesuorac wrote: post #13

I know everybody is still on the high from USB-C but I'm still going to go on the record it will be one of the biggest disasters in cable history. 1) There's going to be video-only cables; low-voltage only cables; etc and this time everything is usb-c so you can literally only tell which ables work by testing all of the dozen cables instead of the 1-2 USB-As you have. 2) The connector is symmetrical but the pins aren…

Yes and even worse, now EU bureaucrats have mandated that Apple give up their resistance and support this inferior connector.

Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#226

Post by lxgr »

lesuorac wrote: post #63
Izkata wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Up until this year I've had exactly 3 USB-C cables: Nintendo Switch, which is always plugged into its dock; laptop charger, also always plugged in at my desk; and phone charger. No real room for the mistakes they're describing.

Nintendo Switch is non-compliant [1] so you've already seen (2) it just hasn't been a big enough problem to be visible to you. I suspect a big reason for that is the Switch is a wall USB-C charger so you don't try to connect it between many USB-C devices. [1]: https://old.reddit.com/r/NintendoSwitch/comments/87vmud/the_...

The comment you're referencing is claiming that the Switch is non-compliant at the power delivery protocol level.

Assuming that that's true, this has nothing to do with being wired incorrectly, nor is it an implementation mistake that's facilitated by the design of the USB-C plug being reversible. It could literally happen with USB-PD over USB-A/B.

Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#227

Post by loeg »

stavros wrote: post #48
jawns wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that there was more that could have been done to signal correct orientation. But an additional wrinkle is that the orientation of the port itself was not static. On laptops and desktops, it was horizontal. On certain other devices, it was vertical. Often these ports were in hard-to-reach or hard-to-see places, and having to reconcile the orientation in each case probably added to the frustration.

Not really, HDMI ports are in weird orientation and mounted in hard-to-reach places as well, but the shape makes it very obvious (even by feel) which way it should (or can't) go. This is much harder with the rectangular USB plug.

HDMI can be a real pain to plug in blind / by feel.

Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#228

Post by terr-dav »

pixl97 wrote: post #196
sokoloff wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have many USB-C cables that don't behave like other USB-C cables. Just this past week, I had to buy another cable for my son's desk setup because of the many USB-C cables I had, I was out of the ones that would carry 4K video and USB-C 80+W PD to his laptop at the same time. (I had a couple that worked, but they were in use for my wife and I, and the couple handfuls of others I had were capable of zero or one of th…

I'm not sure if that's the best example... Kinda like saying that I have a bunch of very light indoor extension cords and you are wanting to run an outdoor high amperage device (both 110v in this example). Yea, the interface for both is the same, but one is going to be used far less often and require a much more expensive cable for a reason.

The girth of a power cable roughly scales with capacity though, and there are 3 common pin configurations

- 2 equal size blades

- 2 unequal size blades

- 3 unequal + ground pin

plus a fourth for 20A

- 1 vertical blade, 1 horizontal blade, 1 ground pin

USB-C cables have one form factor, which is what GP is talking about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEMA_connector

Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#229

Post by omgJustTest »

I think people underestimate how cheaply products are made.

> Making USB reversible to begin with would have necessitated twice as many wires and twice as many circuits, and would have doubled the cost.

Adding more wires, even if it is a few is not the cheapest one and therefore not the one that wins. The relative convenience of a feature is always trumped in early days by cost-to-produce.

USB-C recently introducing the symmetry of the connector does not imply that manufacturers will use it... ie you have a symmetric connector that performs differently based on how it was plugged.

Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#230

Post by jtaft »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #95

> Someday we'll look back and laugh (or cry) at our early USB struggles. Hah, sounds like the editor is someone too young to have used serial/parallel/vga ports. Early business PCs, for what ever reason[1] were built like tanks . They weighed dozens of kgs/pounds. And the connectors were often screwed in with a screwdriver for good measure. Yes, you could wing it when being sloppy, but they weren't always very tight…

Bending a pin stunk. I remeber jamming a flat head screwdriver into the port to try and straighten
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