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USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

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Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#91

Post by putlake »

stavros wrote: post #48
jawns wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that there was more that could have been done to signal correct orientation. But an additional wrinkle is that the orientation of the port itself was not static. On laptops and desktops, it was horizontal. On certain other devices, it was vertical. Often these ports were in hard-to-reach or hard-to-see places, and having to reconcile the orientation in each case probably added to the frustration.

Not really, HDMI ports are in weird orientation and mounted in hard-to-reach places as well, but the shape makes it very obvious (even by feel) which way it should (or can't) go. This is much harder with the rectangular USB plug.

HDMI is better than USB but it's still hard to do plug it in in dark, hard to reach places.

Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#92

Post by cushpush »

>But in an effort to keep it as cheap as possible, the decision was made to go with a design that, in theory, would give users a 50/50 chance of plugging it in correctly (you can up the odds by looking at the inside first, or identifying the logo).

I despise this "design decision." Literally bakes in the 50% of the time you plug it in the wrong orientation and lose seconds of your life. Who cares if the sands of time are moving more rapidly than asteroids? We can save money and make more of these badboys to fill the landfills with once they're obsolete. Hard to argue that logic that clearly won via market dynamics. But where are we now?

Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#93

Post by c22 »

stavros wrote: post #48
jawns wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that there was more that could have been done to signal correct orientation. But an additional wrinkle is that the orientation of the port itself was not static. On laptops and desktops, it was horizontal. On certain other devices, it was vertical. Often these ports were in hard-to-reach or hard-to-see places, and having to reconcile the orientation in each case probably added to the frustration.

Not really, HDMI ports are in weird orientation and mounted in hard-to-reach places as well, but the shape makes it very obvious (even by feel) which way it should (or can't) go. This is much harder with the rectangular USB plug.

I have definitely been frustrated by an hdmi port I couldn't see. I almost always have to gain visibility on the port to get the cable inserted correctly. If I happen to already know the orientation of the port on a device I can do it by feel, but I could also do this with the microusb-b to my old cell phone.

Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#94

Post by mlyle »

alanbernstein wrote: post #86
Ajedi32 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had to do a double take after reading this comment to make sure I wasn't reading an old thread from 2014 or something. USB-C has been out for years now and neither of these predictions have come to pass. Your comment aged poorly before you even finished writing it. USB-C isn't without its problems, but neither of those are one of them.

I own a usb-c male to usb-c female extension cable that I connect to a yubikey. The yubikey only works in one orientation. I don't have any other bits to test hypotheses with, but I believe the cable was made with the symmetry problem described above.

Usb-c to usb-c extensions are currently explicitly prohibited by standard, both because of issues like this and ways that they defeat safety mechanisms with charging.

Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#95

Post by mixmastamyk »

> Someday we'll look back and laugh (or cry) at our early USB struggles.

Hah, sounds like the editor is someone too young to have used serial/parallel/vga ports. Early business PCs, for what ever reason[1] were built like tanks. They weighed dozens of kgs/pounds. And the connectors were often screwed in with a screwdriver for good measure.

Yes, you could wing it when being sloppy, but they weren't always very tight and cables heavy so you'd want them screwed in for a long-term installation to avoid issues.

When USB came out it was a revelation that you just needed to pop it in and were done. Yes, you'd have to look at it first, but that was the same with every other port of before that. I remember PS/2 being perhaps hardest to line up correctly.

So USB 1.0 fixed one problem, but not every problem. Not exactly a reason to cry.

[1] Probably inertia from main/minicomputers which were serious installations and needed to keep running through wartime. :-/

Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#96

Post by Ajedi32 »

alanbernstein wrote: post #86
Ajedi32 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had to do a double take after reading this comment to make sure I wasn't reading an old thread from 2014 or something. USB-C has been out for years now and neither of these predictions have come to pass. Your comment aged poorly before you even finished writing it. USB-C isn't without its problems, but neither of those are one of them.

I own a usb-c male to usb-c female extension cable that I connect to a yubikey. The yubikey only works in one orientation. I don't have any other bits to test hypotheses with, but I believe the cable was made with the symmetry problem described above.

AFAIK there's no such thing as a standards compliant USB-C male to USB-C female extension cable. The very concept goes against the spec[1].

You have a point though; I'm sure there are abominations out there that abuse the USB spec in all sorts of interesting ways, they just haven't been something I've encountered in my years of using USB-C for everything.

[1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/UsbCHardware/comments/10xj74r/why_d...

Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#97

Post by lisper »

devit wrote: post #81

If you have a reversible connector, then you might be entangled in a dilemma of which way is the "better" or "optimal" or "canonical" way, while with a non-reversible one there is only one way and thus no dilemma. And in fact USB-C is not really physically reversible, because the hardware detects which way it's plugged in and permutes the signals, as opposed to mirroring all the wires, so there is indeed a "right" wa…

And indeed there are usb-c hubs that only work in one orientation so we now have the worst of all possible worlds.

Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#98

Post by ruined »

opan wrote: post #46
simonjgreen wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or displayport. Personally I find hdmi almost as annoying as usb, though I can’t explain why that happens!

One problem with HDMI is that it has no clips or screws or similar holding it in, unlike DP, DVI, VGA, BNC... I remember I used to knock the HDMI out of one of my monitors with my foot all the time. It plugged in going straight up and barely could resist a bit more force than gravity, and the cable dangled behind the desk since the tower was on the floor.

the correct solution there is to manage your cables. yanking your monitor off the desk would not be an improvement

Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#99

Post by bandrami »

jmbwell wrote: post #83
lesuorac wrote: post #13

I know everybody is still on the high from USB-C but I'm still going to go on the record it will be one of the biggest disasters in cable history. 1) There's going to be video-only cables; low-voltage only cables; etc and this time everything is usb-c so you can literally only tell which ables work by testing all of the dozen cables instead of the 1-2 USB-As you have. 2) The connector is symmetrical but the pins aren…

3) The most fragile part (the wafer in the center of the receptacle) is on the expensive-to-repair device, while the least fragile part is on the cheap-to-replace cable. HDMI makes this same mistake. With USB-A, at least the plastic part on the device is relatively robust, and with Lightning, both plug and socket were rather robust (albeit prone to debris incursion). With older pin-type connectors like VGA and DVI, t…

The worst connector for that problem is those ----ing antenna leads your laptop has for an M2 wifi card.

Re: USB inventor explains why the connector was not designed to be reversible (2019)

#100

Post by Cockbrand »

USB A to Micro USB cables with reversible connectors on both ends have been available for a few years - much too late, but still useful. I bought some on AliExpress, and while probably violating some specs, they have been working nicely for me so far.
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