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Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

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Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#351

Post by chme »

thomastjeffery wrote: post #75
chme wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get you in principle, but the company should still be allowed to sell hardware with some default software installed, because if I had to search for someone on the internet that wrote software for my specific smart TV, washing machine or whatever this becomes much more painful. I would rather see a 'right to repair' extended to software bundled. Any device or software that can connect to a network or can be interfac…

Of course your hardware would come with software installed! That software would simply be written by a separate company. We already do this! HP didn't write Windows, but they sure as hell sell laptops with Windows preinstalled.

I still don't get how that would solve the issue of having no linux drivers.

Lets say I create a new GPU IP core, i give it to a third-party chip manifactorer to produce it, then that delivers it to a fourth-party to burn a privat key into the fuses, then a fifth party signs its firmware with that key, which contains checks that Windows is running in secure boot mode with Microsoft keys. And then it is sold to the end user via a distributor, which did't do any other work on it.

How would preventing a 'vertical' integration forbid that?

I would rather just regulate that users should be given the full specs and possibility to use their own keys, to allow them to run their own software on/with it without any feature gates to the hardware. This can be argued for as a right to repair or as giving devices a second life and thus reducing electronic waste.

Your rule would likely make the work of smaller companies and startups more difficult, if they have to hire a third-party to write the software. A solo dev might has to create two companies in order to create one product, that seems painful. I guess a lot of OSH projects would not be possible with that rule.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#352

Post by loup-vaillant »

gigatexal wrote: post #335
loup-vaillant wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hardware manufacturers can’t all go out of business. We need hardware at some point. Some might, but what I’m proposing would drive up costs for everyone. Most likely, prices will just go up a little bit. Allowing hardware manufacturers to ship their own software, even if that software must be free, even if the hardware specs must be released, will still allow them to ship crappy hardware interfaces and compensate th…

But if it’s open installing your own, open, on-bloatware software would be easy. That’s not the case now … but it could be. Hardware vendors then that install the vanilla, non-bloatware software will be seen as a feature. You can see this now: Google ships vanilla Android whereas some of the Android phone manufacturers ship it with their own crapware. Or on the other end of the spectrum Apple ships MacOS without adve…

Yeah, the part about gaming the system may not actually apply.

Now, bloated software is still bloated software, even if it's open. I guess that with the sources the community can make it better, but there's still a limit to how well they can do: the hardware interface itself. It's a long tradition in hardware design to ship crappy interfaces and just say the software folks will make it nice. But if all you ship is the hardware, the interfaces have to be nice, else it will be harder to program for, and that definitely influences the ultimate success of the platform. See game consoles, I believe those who have a reputation of being hard to program tend to sell less (because they have fewer or worse games).

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#353

Post by donkeybeer »

scarface_74 wrote: post #344
donkeybeer wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please answer the sibling question above, what is the difficulty in answering such a simple, clearly stated question? Why are you refusing to answer that and trying to change the topic each time?

Which question is that? Apple implemented things on top of the standard to make Apple headphones work better than standard BT devices with their own hardware. But they still implement the standards. This shows the power of an integrated solution. Apple released a better way to pair Bluetooth headphones with their devices and at the same time got the better method implemented across their computers, phones, tablets, w…

Since you seem to have trouble with even simple English, I will ask again. What do you lose from Apple being forced to make the drivers etc open and devices compatible with other devices? I don't care if it causes apple more or less work, I care how it affects me. Why are you not answering if you think you have anything at all to lose from Apple being made to open stuff up?

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#354

Post by happymellon »

scarface_74 wrote: post #317
PrimeMcFly wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah the US has a weird fascination with Apple in particular. Just look at iphone users looking down on Android users because their text messages come as green instead of blue.

In every single market, the people who an afford iPhones, overwhelmingly by them. You see the same in the EU and especially China.

That's completely made up.

I'm in the UK, and working in IT, I can assure you that everyone in my team can afford and iPhone.

Only one does.

The cashier at the supermarket have them, you can see them in the back pockets of folks stacking shelves. It's not a device that requires people to be wealthy to own, just a desire.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#355

Post by donkeybeer »

scarface_74 wrote: post #344
donkeybeer wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please answer the sibling question above, what is the difficulty in answering such a simple, clearly stated question? Why are you refusing to answer that and trying to change the topic each time?

Which question is that? Apple implemented things on top of the standard to make Apple headphones work better than standard BT devices with their own hardware. But they still implement the standards. This shows the power of an integrated solution. Apple released a better way to pair Bluetooth headphones with their devices and at the same time got the better method implemented across their computers, phones, tablets, w…

I see you refused to answer this question. You are busy in other threads after this. Says a lot you repeatedly refuse to answer an extremely simple question stated multiple times, in many different ways.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#356

Post by brokenmachine »

scarface_74 wrote: post #65
vegetablepotpie wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like this idea because it’s incredibly American. If we’re going to go full on free-market, we might as well live up to those principles. There is precedent for this idea, in 1948 the Supreme Court forced the film studios to give up exhibition (theaters) with the paramount decision. This enabled the rise of independent film, and audiences benefited from more choice. If you try to do this legislatively the Apples and…

There are so many flawed analogies here it’s hard to know where to start. How will it make my everyday experience better as an Apple customer without the integration of software and hardware between my Mac, iPads Watch, Airpods and phone? Windows laptops are worse in every vector than MacBooks. No consumer is asking for this. So you want to degrade the user experience for “freedom” by giving the government more power…

>Windows laptops are worse in every vector than MacBooks. No consumer is asking for this.

"Not being Apple" was a very major part of my choice to buy a Windows laptop.

Some other consumers share my opinion of Apple.

>So you want to degrade the user experience for “freedom” by giving the government more power???

Having open standards is not "giving the government more power".

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#357

Post by webmobdev »

scarface_74 wrote: post #340
webmobdev wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Apple can create a working solution and submit it to the standards body. That's what being "open" means.

And then if the standards body doesn’t accept their solution because low end Android manufacturers don’t want to spend an extra 20 cents on a build of materials? That’s why PC OEMs didn’t support FireWire before USB 3 came out except for Sony and Dell on some of their high end offerings. If you don’t like Apple’s offerings you are free to choose Android/Windows

That's where regulation comes in - when it is mandated that devices have to support standards, all will have to support it.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#358

Post by webmobdev »

krick wrote: post #336
webmobdev wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... literally, we are stepping farther from the open market and killing some personal freedom... No, we are democratically balancing consumer rights with the rights of entrepreneurs to make money. Consumers need the right to repair and not be limited with closed, proprietary standards. That entrepreneurs may take take a slight hit on their profit due to this is acceptable as protecting the consumer enhances the wel…

> democratically balancing consumer rights Right. By stepping farther from the open market and killing some personal freedom. (Also, word "democratically" is absolutely meaningless in this context, but that's the usual mode it is used in in western politics.)

> "democratically" is absolutely meaningless in this context

No, it isn't. When a law / regulation / policy is made all stakeholders are consulted and their views sought on it. Consumers are one of the stakeholders in context of what we are talking about. Politicians than work out a compromise that balances everyone's concerns. That's basically democracy at work.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#359

Post by dumpsterdiver »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #325
dumpsterdiver wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you imagine the nightmare alternate universe of waking up to hear that Rowhammer is raging uncontrolled in the world, and the only way to fix it is to either return a data center full of affected products to the manufacturer or pay a specialist (who would probably be booked out for a long time to come) to come onsite?

Last I checked Rowhammer is raging uncontrolled in the world, and the only way to fix it is to swap the RAM with something that actually works. I’m not aware of any configurable firmware residing on RAM chips.

Yikes, lol. Way to put my foot in my mouth. For some reason I was thinking it was fixed with software, but that was just a taxing mitigation that only lowered the chance of success. I stand corrected, we do in fact live in that nightmare world.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#360

Post by loup-vaillant »

pasabagi wrote: post #261
loup-vaillant wrote: post #10

They don't necessarily have to: there's another, more comprehensive hammer they (or the US for that matter) could use: disallow vertical integration. Force hardware vendors to only sell hardware. If any software that can be changed remotely or by the user is off limits. Even firmware. Conversely, software vendors can only sell (or freely distribute) software. For vendors from abroad, don't go extra-territorial, just…

It's a cool idea, but where do you draw the line? Where do you place something like microcode? Depending on how you design a computer, you can have software almost all the way down.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37731829

I draw the line at "can it be updated without returning to the factory?"

If microcode can be updated by the user (or remotely by Intel), it’s software. If it’s immutable then its hardware. If an FPGA bitstream (say a RISC-V soft core) is locked into the FPGA’s NVCM, then it can no longer be modified, and it counts as hardware. If however it is merely stored in the SPI flash and can be modified, then it’s software.

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