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Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

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Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#331

Post by loup-vaillant »

gigatexal wrote: post #148
loup-vaillant wrote: post #10

They don't necessarily have to: there's another, more comprehensive hammer they (or the US for that matter) could use: disallow vertical integration. Force hardware vendors to only sell hardware. If any software that can be changed remotely or by the user is off limits. Even firmware. Conversely, software vendors can only sell (or freely distribute) software. For vendors from abroad, don't go extra-territorial, just…

What if we allow hardware manufacturers to create software to run their hardware but open the schematics and make the hardware hackable such that others can run software they want? That seems like a decent compromise because there’s very little margin in hardware alone and if you force hardware makers to go that route pretty soon there won’t be any because they’ll all have gone out of business.

Hardware manufacturers can’t all go out of business. We need hardware at some point. Some might, but what I’m proposing would drive up costs for everyone. Most likely, prices will just go up a little bit.

Allowing hardware manufacturers to ship their own software, even if that software must be free, even if the hardware specs must be released, will still allow them to ship crappy hardware interfaces and compensate that with bloated software. I’m also afraid some manufacturer would try to game the system, with, say, tweaking the instruction set of every new GPU so third party drivers can’t really keep up.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#332

Post by loup-vaillant »

stainablesteel wrote: post #301
loup-vaillant wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh but it does have parallel in other businesses. Splitting oil companies being one of the oldest examples. Rockefeller reportedly became richer as a result, so it wasn't even a socialist move. Another feature of forbidding vertical integration is that is prevents companies from competing with their own customers.

i don't think your examples are great examples but i immediately disagreed with myself after posting because i don't think hospitals can make their own drugs. or rather, if a drug manufacturer owned a hospital and a health insurance company this might be considered a conflict of interest i still don't think its a great example given this one comes from an ethical basis but this is more apt

I have yet to really flesh out my proposal, but ethics does come into play. Walled gardens for instance, are in part enabled by hardware/software bundles.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#333

Post by loup-vaillant »

KirillPanov wrote: post #248
loup-vaillant wrote: post #10

They don't necessarily have to: there's another, more comprehensive hammer they (or the US for that matter) could use: disallow vertical integration. Force hardware vendors to only sell hardware. If any software that can be changed remotely or by the user is off limits. Even firmware. Conversely, software vendors can only sell (or freely distribute) software. For vendors from abroad, don't go extra-territorial, just…

> Now the complicated part is how to define a company. We don't want a single company to just split itself into 2 legal entities HN routinely seems unaware that this is a totally solved problem in the tax law of virtually every industrialized country. In the US, for example, the phrase is "Common Control": https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/26/1.414(c)-2 All sorts of modern tax schemes would have truck-sized loopho…

I should have thought of those issues, thank you. I’ll look up this "Common Control".

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#334

Post by scarface_74 »

PrimeMcFly wrote: post #329
scarface_74 wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has the fifth highest income in the world https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/median-in... You mean people like me who have facts on their side?

You don't have facts, just excessive devotion to Apple. The US might have the 5th highest income, but I said people in the US don't have higher incomes than other western countries on average . The US has a crazy skewed income disparity. It's an extreme minority making high incomes, and it certainly doesn't support your rather baseless argument. No, the reason people in the US have much more of an Apple fixation than…

So you do you disagree with the link I posted that the median income in the US is the fifth highest.

Again, you were wrong unless you can find a better citation. Because as of now, you have provided…nothing

> No, the reason people in the US have much more of an Apple fixation than other countries is because Apple is seen as an elite/luxury item,

Geeks just can’t stand the fact that when given the choice and have the ability, choose Apple devices and don’t care about running Linux on the Apple Pencil.

Can you name one country where higher income individuals don’t overwhelmingly by iPhones? It’s definitely true in China - the largest country in the world

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#335

Post by gigatexal »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #331
gigatexal wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if we allow hardware manufacturers to create software to run their hardware but open the schematics and make the hardware hackable such that others can run software they want? That seems like a decent compromise because there’s very little margin in hardware alone and if you force hardware makers to go that route pretty soon there won’t be any because they’ll all have gone out of business.

Hardware manufacturers can’t all go out of business. We need hardware at some point. Some might, but what I’m proposing would drive up costs for everyone. Most likely, prices will just go up a little bit. Allowing hardware manufacturers to ship their own software, even if that software must be free, even if the hardware specs must be released, will still allow them to ship crappy hardware interfaces and compensate th…

But if it’s open installing your own, open, on-bloatware software would be easy. That’s not the case now … but it could be.

Hardware vendors then that install the vanilla, non-bloatware software will be seen as a feature. You can see this now: Google ships vanilla Android whereas some of the Android phone manufacturers ship it with their own crapware. Or on the other end of the spectrum Apple ships MacOS without advertising garbage but vanilla Windows ships games and ads in the start menu.

So I don’t really see how your argument stands.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#336

Post by krick »

webmobdev wrote: post #289
krick wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a great idea, but with a caveat: communism is a great idea too, and pretty much in the same sense. I can say that about most of the propositions in this thread. I, as a user (and a vim-user, may I add), would like it very much if all the software and hardware in the world would be fully open, customizable, community-maintained. I, as a manufacturer, am less keen on that idea. So, to make it happen, every manufa…

> ... literally, we are stepping farther from the open market and killing some personal freedom... No, we are democratically balancing consumer rights with the rights of entrepreneurs to make money. Consumers need the right to repair and not be limited with closed, proprietary standards. That entrepreneurs may take take a slight hit on their profit due to this is acceptable as protecting the consumer enhances the wel…

> democratically balancing consumer rights

Right. By stepping farther from the open market and killing some personal freedom. (Also, word "democratically" is absolutely meaningless in this context, but that's the usual mode it is used in in western politics.)

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#337

Post by webmobdev »

scarface_74 wrote: post #291
webmobdev wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it doesn't exist, then obviously the standard body has to work with the stakeholders and create one.

Are you suggesting that Apple shouldn’t create any new feature without going through a standards body?

No. Apple can create a working solution and submit it to the standards body. That's what being "open" means.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#338

Post by pjmlp »

scarface_74 wrote: post #322
pjmlp wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is why they manage 20% world market share on mobile devices, and about 10% across desktop and laptop devices. Not everyone can buy a Bentley.

And the purpose of a for profit corporation is - to make a profit. Why should Apple care about going after the low end market? Only one Android maker makes any real profit - Samsung. How much of that is due to them also making some of their own components and having differentiated proprietary software that some people must like? Again, we are getting back to the advantage of an integrated solution. Most Android afici…

At a 300 euro price point, integrated experience from Samsung, Huawei and Xioami are good enough for most folks.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#339

Post by michaelmrose »

askonomm wrote: post #278
michaelmrose wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever wanted to copy anything from A->B that wasn't a 2fa text, a password, or a url? I certainly haven't. An android phone out of the box supports syncing tabs and passwords and provides a trivial way to copy 2FA codes with a built in feature.

So your argument is that because the things to copy are few, this feature doesn't matter? Or what? I fail to see how what you say contributes to the discussion of vertical integration in any way.

Not few none. People need to share files, tabs, messages, mails. If you can share the things people actually want shared then sharing the clipboard itself has zero value.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#340

Post by scarface_74 »

webmobdev wrote: post #337
scarface_74 wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting that Apple shouldn’t create any new feature without going through a standards body?

No. Apple can create a working solution and submit it to the standards body. That's what being "open" means.

And then if the standards body doesn’t accept their solution because low end Android manufacturers don’t want to spend an extra 20 cents on a build of materials?

That’s why PC OEMs didn’t support FireWire before USB 3 came out except for Sony and Dell on some of their high end offerings.

If you don’t like Apple’s offerings you are free to choose Android/Windows

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