Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

old.reddit.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 369 posts

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#111

Post by pjmlp »

mschuster91 wrote: post #77
scarface_74 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fairly decent? The iPhone 5s from 2013 just got an update and it’s the carriers is a poor excuse. Apple runs on the same carriers. Google’s first party phones don’t have third party bloat ware and still have a piss poor history of updates

And guess why? Because ~3-ish years used to be what the SoC vendors provided as BSP support timeframe, and there was no mandate that they open up their specifications. Most don't even care about following the legal minimum aka provide the kernel and bootloader source code, especially not all these fly-by-night gongkai "brands".

Lame excuses, Google could do the same as Microsoft with PC standards and OEM legal obligations.

They have chosen not to.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#112

Post by howinteresting »

scarface_74 wrote: post #68
vanviegen wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Apple could have made this work across other platforms (Windows, Android, Linux), but chose not to. KDE Connect, for example, runs on quite a few platform, including all popular ones. https://kdeconnect.kde.org/download.html

Why should Apple be forced to write software for competing platforms?

I generally think any company with a >10 billion (2023 US) dollar valuation should be forced to do things that may not directly benefit them but benefit society. Having to publish open specifications for all their proprietary integrations is a pretty easy, relatively low-cost example.

How to make this work in practice is a really interesting question. Community and employee representatives on the board would be a good start. But I think just having the requirement that open specifications be made available, and writing that into legislation, would be great.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#113

Post by pjmlp »

TacticalCoder wrote: post #32

> Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux? > Why are these companies like intel, Razer, nvidia or AMD.. The question makes no sense. As one of the Reddit comment says: Intel and AMD are among the biggest contributors to the Linux kernel. The real-world is pretty much powered by millions of Linux machines running on Intel or AMD hardware (for the most part). Try replacing that with Wind…

Azure, and all the games being emulated on Proton as means to make SteamDeck a viable product.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#114

Post by mschuster91 »

pjmlp wrote: post #111
mschuster91 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And guess why? Because ~3-ish years used to be what the SoC vendors provided as BSP support timeframe, and there was no mandate that they open up their specifications. Most don't even care about following the legal minimum aka provide the kernel and bootloader source code, especially not all these fly-by-night gongkai "brands".

Lame excuses, Google could do the same as Microsoft with PC standards and OEM legal obligations. They have chosen not to.

Agreed. Google has gone down the drains just as well on all fronts... the thing is, once again, there is no viable competition left since Microsoft gave up. The various Linux phone projects are extremely niche stuff, Blackberry and Symbian are long gone, and Google seems to be happy coasting along on mediocrity and billions of dollars in Play Store revenue.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#115

Post by ClumsyPilot »

scarface_74 wrote: post #65
vegetablepotpie wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like this idea because it’s incredibly American. If we’re going to go full on free-market, we might as well live up to those principles. There is precedent for this idea, in 1948 the Supreme Court forced the film studios to give up exhibition (theaters) with the paramount decision. This enabled the rise of independent film, and audiences benefited from more choice. If you try to do this legislatively the Apples and…

There are so many flawed analogies here it’s hard to know where to start. How will it make my everyday experience better as an Apple customer without the integration of software and hardware between my Mac, iPads Watch, Airpods and phone? Windows laptops are worse in every vector than MacBooks. No consumer is asking for this. So you want to degrade the user experience for “freedom” by giving the government more power…

> How will it make my everyday experience better as an Apple customer without the integration

Perhaps you should ask the inverse - how good would your experience with Apple be, if there were no open standards paid for by someone else, and fought for by someone else?

You wouldn't even have GPS and navigation. You would not have HTML or the open web. Before we fought for video codecs compatibility you could not even get a video that was recorded on a Device A to reliably play on Device B. The phone would be almost useless.

The people that argue this, they only take from the commons and never give back.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#116

Post by pjmlp »

noobermin wrote: post #27

I've swung over the last few years from thinking it's manufacturers' fault to realising that most of the fault here lies with the linux project itself. They're the ones who have normalised constant churn and thus needing to keep drivers for hardware, sometimes many years old, up to date year after year or even month after month. After seeing the churn mentality affect everything mainly spreading from web dev circles…

Yes, ideology has a price.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#117

Post by ClumsyPilot »

slim wrote: post #49
gray_-_wolf wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well that world would suck immensely Maybe. > Case in point But this does not really support your statement no? What you described seems to me SW only functionality no? And if in requires any special HW (BT? I have no idea how it works under the hood), why does it need tight integration? I do not see a technical reason why Android and Windows could not provide the same feature out of the box, despite neither the Go…

the most probable cause is patents

Sounds like we clear abuse of patent law.

> Non-obvious is a requirement for patent protection that literally means your invention is not obvious to someone who is in the same industry. A new invention needs to be unexpected or surprising and cannot be anticipated by looking at the existing technology or prior art.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#118

Post by pandaman »

mschuster91 wrote: post #30
askonomm wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that world would suck immensely, with horrible integration between hardware and software like exists right now outside of the Apple world. Case in point: can you copy text on your phone, and paste in your computer (and vice versa), seamlessly as if it were the same device, without any configuration, hacks or programs needed? Things like that are amazing and I'd never give up. And I'm sure most people wouldn't wa…

> Well that world would suck immensely, with horrible integration between hardware and software like exists right now outside of the Apple world. Why? The hardware people at companies like NVIDIA or Apple already have to write detailed documentation for their stuff anyway so that the software people can do their side. Assuming they do a good enough job at writing documentation and testing their hardware, it should no…

Have you wrote drivers? Writing a driver off documentation is: a) very hard, how do you debug anything without JTAG ports and simulators? and b) not correct on principle because the documentation is not the hardware, there are errata in the hardware so what documentation says is not always what the hardware does and there are mistakes in the documentation for the same outcome.

>The only ones in trouble would be the vendors of crap SoCs who ship extremely buggy hardware and make up for the lack of QA in software quirks instead.

I.e. the every single vendor currently on the market...

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#119

Post by ClumsyPilot »

kanbara wrote: post #15
loup-vaillant wrote: post #10

They don't necessarily have to: there's another, more comprehensive hammer they (or the US for that matter) could use: disallow vertical integration. Force hardware vendors to only sell hardware. If any software that can be changed remotely or by the user is off limits. Even firmware. Conversely, software vendors can only sell (or freely distribute) software. For vendors from abroad, don't go extra-territorial, just…

terrible idea. people buy apple products precisely because of how integrated they are. this idealism and desire to force companies to support everything (as much as i want gaming on mac/linux and drivers for things supported) is the single most dangerous idea that would completely ruin the user experience for millions.

> people buy apple products

People used to buy cocaine toothache drops and give them to children to get them to shut up. People used to send babies by post. Just because people like something doesn't mean it doesn't have terrible effects. [1]

> single most dangerous idea

I mean, sure after guns, drugs, superbugs, global nuclear war, climate change, super-plague produced by synthetic biology...

1 - https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/coca...

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#120

Post by scarface_74 »

howinteresting wrote: post #112
scarface_74 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should Apple be forced to write software for competing platforms?

I generally think any company with a >10 billion (2023 US) dollar valuation should be forced to do things that may not directly benefit them but benefit society. Having to publish open specifications for all their proprietary integrations is a pretty easy, relatively low-cost example. How to make this work in practice is a really interesting question. Community and employee representatives on the board would be a goo…

Oh god, talking about design by committee. Why not just cut out the middle man and let the government take it over and come up with “5 year plans”
Post reply on HN