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Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

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Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#81
post #8
post #2

More likely they would require companies to publish specs suitable for driver authors. I’ve always thought that companies treating their register configuration and I/O offsets as a trade secret is ridiculous.

This. Linked post is a misconception of how EU actually work. They will never "hardcode" something like "linux drivers" into the law. But, in theory, they could write a law like "If you want to sell your device in the EU, you must publish a freely available technical spec with enough level of detail to write a functioning driver".

And the ability to use such a driver. Hell, even the spec wouldn't be such a strong requirement as people can reverse them. The issue is usually the firmware and signature checks.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#82
post #7
post #2

More likely they would require companies to publish specs suitable for driver authors. I’ve always thought that companies treating their register configuration and I/O offsets as a trade secret is ridiculous.

This sounds much more reasonable to me. Banning unnecessary hardware DRM and requiring specs to get published would be a much more effective way to stimulate the market. Forcing manufacturers to publish Linux drivers would probably just end up in low-effort support on either side. The last person I want writing my Linux drivers is someone who doesn't care.

Yeah, you know it would end up with the manufacturers just releasing a binary driver for exactly one point release of the kernel and calling that box checked. Might even just be some NDIS thing where they wrap the Windows driver to get it mostly working.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every year, Apple releases new hardware and software in tandem. How long does it take Android manufacturers and Windows manufacturers to take advantage of the latest OS features? How are those Android updates working out compared to iPhones?

That wouldn't change at all. The newly separated software company would get appropriate hardware specs and prototypes during the same timeline they do today (as a vertically integrated branch of Apple).

So instead of working together , the software team would work in isolation and then when they are finished they deliver to the hardware company and keep going back and forth? Yeah that’s going to work out real well. Let’s just look how well it work for Android.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like this idea because it’s incredibly American. If we’re going to go full on free-market, we might as well live up to those principles. There is precedent for this idea, in 1948 the Supreme Court forced the film studios to give up exhibition (theaters) with the paramount decision. This enabled the rise of independent film, and audiences benefited from more choice. If you try to do this legislatively the Apples and…

There are so many flawed analogies here it’s hard to know where to start. How will it make my everyday experience better as an Apple customer without the integration of software and hardware between my Mac, iPads Watch, Airpods and phone? Windows laptops are worse in every vector than MacBooks. No consumer is asking for this. So you want to degrade the user experience for “freedom” by giving the government more power…

> * How will it make my everyday experience better as an Apple customer without the integration of software and hardware between my Mac, iPads Watch, Airpods and phone?*

"Open Standards" - There is no reason that your Mac or iPhone should only work with other Apple products through closed and proprietary standards. With adoption of open standards, all devices (irrespective of their manufacturer) can offer a decent integrated experience.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fairly decent? The iPhone 5s from 2013 just got an update and it’s the carriers is a poor excuse. Apple runs on the same carriers. Google’s first party phones don’t have third party bloat ware and still have a piss poor history of updates

And guess why? Because ~3-ish years used to be what the SoC vendors provided as BSP support timeframe, and there was no mandate that they open up their specifications. Most don't even care about following the legal minimum aka provide the kernel and bootloader source code, especially not all these fly-by-night gongkai "brands".

So it’s what happens when hardware and software is not integrated…

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are so many flawed analogies here it’s hard to know where to start. How will it make my everyday experience better as an Apple customer without the integration of software and hardware between my Mac, iPads Watch, Airpods and phone? Windows laptops are worse in every vector than MacBooks. No consumer is asking for this. So you want to degrade the user experience for “freedom” by giving the government more power…

> * How will it make my everyday experience better as an Apple customer without the integration of software and hardware between my Mac, iPads Watch, Airpods and phone?* "Open Standards" - There is no reason that your Mac or iPhone should only work with other Apple products through closed and proprietary standards. With adoption of open standards, all devices (irrespective of their manufacturer) can offer a decent in…

Yeah and that works out well with Android and Bluetooth.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#87

They don't necessarily have to: there's another, more comprehensive hammer they (or the US for that matter) could use: disallow vertical integration. Force hardware vendors to only sell hardware. If any software that can be changed remotely or by the user is off limits. Even firmware. Conversely, software vendors can only sell (or freely distribute) software. For vendors from abroad, don't go extra-territorial, just…

rather than "disallow vertical integration", start with "disallow lock-out". By all means, vertically integrate as much as you want but it should not be illegal for someone to take your hardware and use it for another purpose that you have no say in, or write and run software using your hardware without you having a say in that.

It would be more prudent indeed to just force hardware vendors to release the specs, and it would be even more prudent still to just disallow lock-out. I would start there like you suggest.

I do suspect however that we'd miss out on many benefits if we don't go all the way the way to disallowing vertical integration eventually. It's also something I rarely see spoken of.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And when would that be?

I suppose I should say forced integration; ex. see the recent nonsense with Hue deciding you need an account to control your local lightbulbs, which isn't a problem with third party apps. I'm generally skeptical of vertical integration because of lock in, but if it's not forced it's less obviously bad.

If only adults had agency to make their own decisions about lightbulbs without depending on the government…

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#89
post #15

They don't necessarily have to: there's another, more comprehensive hammer they (or the US for that matter) could use: disallow vertical integration. Force hardware vendors to only sell hardware. If any software that can be changed remotely or by the user is off limits. Even firmware. Conversely, software vendors can only sell (or freely distribute) software. For vendors from abroad, don't go extra-territorial, just…

terrible idea. people buy apple products precisely because of how integrated they are. this idealism and desire to force companies to support everything (as much as i want gaming on mac/linux and drivers for things supported) is the single most dangerous idea that would completely ruin the user experience for millions.

> this idealism and desire to force companies to support everything

I'm sorry, where did I proposed we do that? As far as I am aware my proposal would only force Apples to split itself in 2: a hardware company that sells top notch hardware (so top notch in fact that even the hardware interfaces are as clean and slick as an iPad's case), and a software company that sells a top-notch integrated software suite on whatever hardware they chose to support (and no other hardware).

This idea that Apple's hardware is somehow better because they don't publish their spec sounds incoherent to be honest. As is the idea that their software is better because it runs on company hardware. If there's still a company selling good hardware, one can still write good software for that particular hardware.

So… forcing hardware companies to support all software? Nope, though publishing their spec does automatically provide some level of support for arbitrary software. Forcing software companies to support all hardware? No more than they do now, possibly even less: hardware vendors will be incentivised to harmonise their respective interfaces to appeal to a maximum number of software vendors, so software vendors will be incentivised to support a relatively limited set of interfaces.

Re: Could EU force hardware manufacturers to make working drivers for Linux?

#90
facepalm

Whoever asked this have not considered for one second what would it mean in a way that can be put into legislation to "make drivers that work equally in linux, windows and even macOS". This is an incredibly, incredibly difficult topic. How would you phrase and likely measure "equality" here? I have no clue how to answer this even in layman terms. Perhaps someone would need to create and maintain a test suite covering all class of peripherals covered by the legislation and mandate this test suite passes. But even that would not cover performance. Much good does it to you if the video card tests pass unaccelerated.

And then the way this question is put forward also shows this person is not at all familiar with how the EU works. The EU does not have laws in the very first place. It does not. But that aside, the amount of study and coordination that goes into creating or amending an existing directive is just monumental. You would need a strong, compelling need to go through a multi year process, costing many millions of euros. In this case, the need was crystal clear: "these new obligations will lead to more re-use of chargers and will help consumers save up to 250 million euro a year on unnecessary charger purchases. Disposed of and unused chargers account for about 11 000 tonnes of e-waste annually in the EU". How many EU consumers are even affected? Because mobile phone chargers, these days, affect everyone (above the age of three or some such).

Here's a quote from the relevant USB C legislation:

Stakeholder consultations

The following consultation activities were conducted between May 2019 and April 2021 in order to assess potential areas for revision and the impacts of the suggested policy option in various areas:

– an inception impact assessment (2018-2019) targeted citizens, consumer associations, non-governmental organisations (NGOs), manufacturers’ associations, and individual manufacturers;

– a public consultation (2019) targeted member states, citizens, consumer associations, NGOs, manufacturers’ associations, and individual manufacturers;

– two consumer surveys (2019 and 2021) targeted citizens;

– a stakeholders survey (2020-2021) targeted Member States, citizens, consumer associations, and manufacturers;

– targeted interviews (2021) targeted consumer associations, environmental associations, market surveillance authorities, NGOs, manufacturers’ associations, and manufacturers;

– expert group meetings targeted consumer associations, Member States, market surveillance authorities, NGOs, manufacturers’ associations, and manufacturer

And all of that was to survey compelling to use an existing, well understood, already ubiquitous standard.

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