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Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

scientificamerican.com

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Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#131

Post by some_furry »

crazygringo wrote: post #123
some_furry wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Conscious awareness appears to be a fundamental aspect of the universe -- as fundamental as the four known fundamental forces -- and physics is concerned with describing the laws of the universe. Why do you believe this to be true? If it's a self-evident observation, try explaining it to me like I'm 5.

Sure, ELI5: the only things we actually know are from our conscious experience. Everything else we have to logically infer from those conscious experiences. Literally everything is built upon our conscious awareness. We have direct experience of our conscious awareness before we can even do physics to determine the four fundamental forces at all. To clarify, consciousness isn't just a fundamental aspect of the univer…

That's an interesting philosophy, but I don't see how consciousness is implied by the standard model or the current investigations into physics beyond the standard model.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#132

Post by heavenlyblue »

krapp wrote: post #118
cscurmudgeon wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate that most education systems don’t teach that physics has its roots in philosophy and some of the most rigorous recent math stems from philosophy (Gödel) leading to vacuous gatekeeping comments like this.

Chemistry has its roots in alchemy, but that doesn't mean alchemy deserves to be treated with the same respect and seriousness as chemistry. Medicine has its roots in witchcraft but that doesn't mean witchcraft deserves to be treated with the same respect and seriousness as medicine. Astronomy has its roots in astrology, but that doesn't mean astrology deserves to be treated with the same respect and seriousness as a…

Citations needed

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#133

Post by calibas »

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #90
BasedAnon wrote: post #88

What's the deal with these things being lumped in with physics? This isn't physics this is just regular philosophy with some scientific sounding language. I feel like this is people reaching for religion but not wanting to admit it to themselves.

I hate that most education systems don’t teach that physics has its roots in philosophy and some of the most rigorous recent math stems from philosophy (Gödel) leading to vacuous gatekeeping comments like this.

It's not just physics, all of modern science is built upon empiricist philosophy.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#134

Post by tsimionescu »

kklisura wrote: post #126
jemmyw wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a shame to see so many comments engaged in this kind of pseudoscience. There's no evidence that consciousness is anything other than a state arising from the physical processes in our bodies. I'm open minded to hypothesis that are potentially testable, but people keep just repeating the implausible. I also hate that I keep reading that consciousness, or anything else, is a universe "hack" which is several levels…

> It's a shame to see so many comments engaged in this kind of pseudoscience. You have Roger Penrose [1] interested in link to say between consciousness and physics [2]. Would you consider that to be pseudoscience? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Penrose [2] https://nautil.us/roger-penrose-on-why-consciousness-does-no...

Yes, Roger Penrose, despite his extraordinary career and contributions to science, has more recently been engaging more in this type of pseudoscience.

It can and has happened to other extraordinary minds as well - Linus Pauling, one of the forefathers of quantum chemistry and molecular biology, but also a promoter of vitamin C as a panacea in his later years.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#135

Post by mannykannot »

uoaei wrote: post #61
FollowingTheDao wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> he null hypothesis states that everything should be considered conscious until proven otherwise. Sorry, no. The null hypothesis is generally assumed to remain possibly true. So, the null hypothesis states that everything should be considered possibly conscious until proven otherwise.

What you pose is just the basis for the question, not a possible answer to it. A null hypothesis must still be a hypothesis, not a subtly vague hedge that doesn't actually posit anything. It may be that the tools science provides are inadequate for this question in which case the question is ill-posed, but in any case your interpretation of what a hypothesis is, is simply incorrect.

In reply to both yourself and FollowingTheDao: the concept of a null hypothesis is from the analysis of quantitative data. For either of the null hypotheses posited in this thread, what are the corresponding data?

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#136

Post by krapp »

heavenlyblue wrote: post #132
krapp wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chemistry has its roots in alchemy, but that doesn't mean alchemy deserves to be treated with the same respect and seriousness as chemistry. Medicine has its roots in witchcraft but that doesn't mean witchcraft deserves to be treated with the same respect and seriousness as medicine. Astronomy has its roots in astrology, but that doesn't mean astrology deserves to be treated with the same respect and seriousness as a…

Citations needed

Citations needed for what? The last 5000 years of human history? The individual developmental history of every branch of philosophy and science, their relationships and the iterative models of reality each developed over the centuries? You need citations to prove that witchcraft, astrology and alchemy do not provide valid models of reality?

No, do that yourself, if you're so inclined.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#137

Post by mainpassathome »

asdff wrote: post #109

Say you have photographic memory, you take a big heavy book and read its contents end to end, converting written thought into conscious thought. How is this reaction balanced, if at all? Do thoughts have a mass? Are they able to be expanded infinitely without constraint? Are they even bound by laws like conservation of energy?

what if i digitize said book, and write it to a solid state drive? somehow, it doesn’t get heavier. Must be a higher power.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#138

Post by heavenlyblue »

gchamonlive wrote: post #68
fishtacos wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Separating this question from the rest of the conversation: Do you think it's plausible we live in a simulated existence? If so, how? If not, why not? (very broad questions, am aware; simply wanted to get an input on your perspective).

It's plausible, even probable, given the arguments layed out in Nick Bolstrom essay "Are you living in a computer simulation?". I used to think the question that should preclude this one is if the universe is even able to host a simulation of itself, but given that we know it is probable we live in a perceived reality that not only is separated from what we think as objective reality, that this perceived reality is,…

> what is really keeping you from experiencing the dharma body of the Buddha

What makes you think dharma body is more real than Santa Claus?

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#139

Post by randallsquared »

notamy wrote: post #103
randallsquared wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Philosophers have largely only been able to run thought experiments. While those can help clarify what we know, any apparently new knowledge generated thereby has to be confirmed by physical experiment. Physical experiments on human consciousness can only be done in very limited ways without ethical issues -- we don't have the technology to press the pause or undo buttons for human brains, and we don't have direct ac…

> Assuming we develop (apparently) conscious minds on our current trajectory, there will be opportunities to run experiments in parallel, have real controls, and AGI researchers will, hypothetically, be able to self-introspect all the way down to the most basic level. If a hypothetical AGI is truly believed to be conscious, how could it ever possibly be ethical to experiment on such a thing?

Consent plus the ability to reset make it at least possible to respect ethics in such experiments, unlike with biological organisms.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#140

Post by crazygringo »

some_furry wrote: post #131
crazygringo wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, ELI5: the only things we actually know are from our conscious experience. Everything else we have to logically infer from those conscious experiences. Literally everything is built upon our conscious awareness. We have direct experience of our conscious awareness before we can even do physics to determine the four fundamental forces at all. To clarify, consciousness isn't just a fundamental aspect of the univer…

That's an interesting philosophy, but I don't see how consciousness is implied by the standard model or the current investigations into physics beyond the standard model.

It isn't. It still has to be integrated with it, that's the whole point. We don't know how gravity is implied by the standard model either, but we still know it's there.

The point is that, at the end of the day, it's still necessarily going to be physics.

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