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Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

scientificamerican.com

61–70 of 326 posts

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#61
post #7

Especially considering recent advances in the neurosciences, and where they intersect with systems theory (see: Friston), it seems inevitable to conclude that learning systems -- mammalian nervous systems being quite architecturally specialized but nonetheless made of the same stuff as the rest of the universe -- generally experience consciousness. Note for the layperson: consciousness is not necessarily awareness (m…

> he null hypothesis states that everything should be considered conscious until proven otherwise. Sorry, no. The null hypothesis is generally assumed to remain possibly true. So, the null hypothesis states that everything should be considered possibly conscious until proven otherwise.

What you pose is just the basis for the question, not a possible answer to it. A null hypothesis must still be a hypothesis, not a subtly vague hedge that doesn't actually posit anything.

It may be that the tools science provides are inadequate for this question in which case the question is ill-posed, but in any case your interpretation of what a hypothesis is, is simply incorrect.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#62
post #36
post #7

Especially considering recent advances in the neurosciences, and where they intersect with systems theory (see: Friston), it seems inevitable to conclude that learning systems -- mammalian nervous systems being quite architecturally specialized but nonetheless made of the same stuff as the rest of the universe -- generally experience consciousness. Note for the layperson: consciousness is not necessarily awareness (m…

> it seems inevitable to conclude that learning systems ... generally experience consciousness. I don't think so. There's no reason to assume a nematode or an LLM is conscious. The latter doesn't even have anything to be conscious of. Ages ago, Minksy has half-jokingly said that consciousness is probably a feedback loop. It makes sense, but it does require the learning system to be able to observe itself in sufficien…

> There's no reason to assume a nematode or an LLM is conscious.

It has inputs. It need not necessarily understand them -- that is a separate question to that of consciousness. See the note for laypeople.

> It's not the hypothesis we know to be true.

I don't think this is a best-faith response to my comment. If I was unclear I can clarify: in absence of further evidence it's a good starting place. I don't think I implied anything about truth.

> And experience informs us that consciousness is not universal

How is it possible you know this with such certainty? People whose lives and careers begin and end with this question don't have any such knowledge.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I could, I would. Most of what you wrote is anathema to evidential scientific conversation. If you've got no evidence for it besides the subjective, then it's not provable. I've no idea who Tom is, so I followed up on what you wrote and believe I have enough of a glimpse to see he's a crackpot theorist. Being a physicist doesn't abscond one of the burden of proof. Apparently he's been cooking up a new double slit…

I think maybe the only thing separating the guesswork involved in producing things like the amplituhedron is the fact that they are able to reproduce results in space-time that we can understand and verify. However, if this is true that we perceive space and time through the evolution of senses that are bounded by fitness functions unrelated to the real world, then the only verification method could deceive us. Maybe…

Separating this question from the rest of the conversation:

Do you think it's plausible we live in a simulated existence? If so, how? If not, why not? (very broad questions, am aware; simply wanted to get an input on your perspective).

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#64
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean it’s not a novel insight to you It’s still a great insight, regardless of who is remembered in history for coming up with it first

[flagged]

Says the troll that has nothing to add to the conversation except crapping on other people’s ideas without actually saying anything insightful at all. Well done

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#66
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a novel insight, it's a standard way of interrogating systems at various levels and has been in common intellectual discourse for some time now.

So? What’s your point? That it can’t be used for anything else because some people, including you, already knew about it, hence it can’t be applied in novel ways? Btw, no one said it was a novel insight

The problem is that every concept is novel to someone that doesn't know anything.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a novel insight, it's a standard way of interrogating systems at various levels and has been in common intellectual discourse for some time now.

Novel to them, and that's okay; I don't assume anyone knows everything. Your content is helpful in clarifying that this insight has been novel to many others already.

That's a bit of a problem when you're presenting yourself as someone who knows anything at all.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think maybe the only thing separating the guesswork involved in producing things like the amplituhedron is the fact that they are able to reproduce results in space-time that we can understand and verify. However, if this is true that we perceive space and time through the evolution of senses that are bounded by fitness functions unrelated to the real world, then the only verification method could deceive us. Maybe…

Separating this question from the rest of the conversation: Do you think it's plausible we live in a simulated existence? If so, how? If not, why not? (very broad questions, am aware; simply wanted to get an input on your perspective).

It's plausible, even probable, given the arguments layed out in Nick Bolstrom essay "Are you living in a computer simulation?".

I used to think the question that should preclude this one is if the universe is even able to host a simulation of itself, but given that we know it is probable we live in a perceived reality that not only is separated from what we think as objective reality, that this perceived reality is, for the sake of survival, a much simplified version of the objective reality, then it isn't impossible that a base objective reality might harbor countless simulations not unlike the one we possibly live in.

This is however an interesting experiment in a way to guide moral decisions when we encounter technological leaps, like if we ever develop the capability of producing an ASI. I don't think, however, that these considerations are falsifiable, because we can't just "break out" of our possible simulation to see what is what. What might that even mean? Would we be able to tell if we broke out of our simulation? It breeds all sorts of speculations that at the end of the day adds very little to the overall discussion.

What I personally think is that there is something to be perceived and explored ousite of the realm of human concern, in the silence of the absence of the endless chatter of the cognitive consciousness, that is hard to experience and hard to describe, even though it is accessible to everyone, maybe in the form of a question, like "what is really keeping you from experiencing the dharma body of the Buddha?".

I know this is all really esoteric and mystic, but I am really trying very hard to maintain a certain level of philosophical scrutiny here, if only whoever reads this might give me the benefit of the doubt. All in all this is my take on the subject and I hope I don't disappoint you too deeply.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have a good grasp on this. Have you looked at Tom Campbell? He has a separate angle than Hoffman but very similar conclusions. The batshit crazy thing about Tom is that he shows you ways that you can individually experiment and prove through your own experiences the things he's positing. His My Big Toe trilogy goes into all this, but I shudder to recommend it. Tedious slog. If you really want to prove it to yours…

If I could, I would. Most of what you wrote is anathema to evidential scientific conversation. If you've got no evidence for it besides the subjective, then it's not provable. I've no idea who Tom is, so I followed up on what you wrote and believe I have enough of a glimpse to see he's a crackpot theorist. Being a physicist doesn't abscond one of the burden of proof. Apparently he's been cooking up a new double slit…

Yeah all fair critism, except that experiment is involved and it does take that long to get rigerous results.

You can actually do this. Takes about ten or so tries over a few weeks for most. I haven't tried to fly like a bird yet. Hopefully I'll get to experience that next.

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