Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#121

Post by BasedAnon » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 9:38 PM UTC

orwin wrote: post #110

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate that most education systems don’t teach that physics has its roots in philosophy and some of the most rigorous recent math stems from philosophy (Gödel) leading to vacuous gatekeeping comments like this.

When a philosophy has enough proofs and credibility, it becomes a science. Also, I do not think you can call logician philosophers. Lewis Carroll wouldn't. Agree that the gatekeeping is a bit much, but doesn't warranted a swipe imho.

>When a philosophy has enough proofs and credibility, it becomes a science

I completely disagree with this notion of science. To me science is the practice of analysing findings from controlled experimentation and then deriving predictive, reproducible and falsifiable hypotheses.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#122

Post by BasedAnon » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 9:42 PM UTC

jemmyw wrote: post #102

BasedAnon wrote: post #88

What's the deal with these things being lumped in with physics? This isn't physics this is just regular philosophy with some scientific sounding language. I feel like this is people reaching for religion but not wanting to admit it to themselves.

It's a shame to see so many comments engaged in this kind of pseudoscience. There's no evidence that consciousness is anything other than a state arising from the physical processes in our bodies. I'm open minded to hypothesis that are potentially testable, but people keep just repeating the implausible. I also hate that I keep reading that consciousness, or anything else, is a universe "hack" which is several levels…

>There's no evidence that consciousness is anything other than a state arising from the physical processes in our bodies

Actually this is backward, "I think therefore I am". There's no reason to believe consciousness is a state arising from a physical process, our experience of consciousness precedes our experience of sensory input and therefore the physical world.

There is more evidence for the reality of consciousness than there is for the physical world, in fact we know for a fact that our understanding of the physical world is aberrational.

edit: evidently alot of empiricists aren't very happy with this comment hahaha

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#123

Post by crazygringo » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 9:42 PM UTC

some_furry wrote: post #120

crazygringo wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conscious awareness appears to be a fundamental aspect of the universe -- as fundamental as the four known fundamental forces -- and physics is concerned with describing the laws of the universe. How could consciousness not be lumped in with physics, from this perspective? It doesn't matter whether consciousness pervades the universe in a form of panpsychism, or is emergent out of interactions we already understand.…

> Conscious awareness appears to be a fundamental aspect of the universe -- as fundamental as the four known fundamental forces -- and physics is concerned with describing the laws of the universe. Why do you believe this to be true? If it's a self-evident observation, try explaining it to me like I'm 5.

Sure, ELI5: the only things we actually know are from our conscious experience. Everything else we have to logically infer from those conscious experiences. Literally everything is built upon our conscious awareness. We have direct experience of our conscious awareness before we can even do physics to determine the four fundamental forces at all.

To clarify, consciousness isn't just a fundamental aspect of the universe -- for our human minds, it's the most fundamental aspect.

If you want to take this to an extreme: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#124

Post by orwin » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 9:42 PM UTC

jemmyw wrote: post #102

BasedAnon wrote: post #88

What's the deal with these things being lumped in with physics? This isn't physics this is just regular philosophy with some scientific sounding language. I feel like this is people reaching for religion but not wanting to admit it to themselves.

It's a shame to see so many comments engaged in this kind of pseudoscience. There's no evidence that consciousness is anything other than a state arising from the physical processes in our bodies. I'm open minded to hypothesis that are potentially testable, but people keep just repeating the implausible. I also hate that I keep reading that consciousness, or anything else, is a universe "hack" which is several levels…

I think consciousness emerge from physical processes. Imho consciousness is necessary to have a sense of self, and especially of self through time. This imply any living being capable of improvising new strategies (not randomly through chance and genetic lottery) is 'conscious' in the same sense that we are.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#125

Post by Animats » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 9:42 PM UTC

But humans are special. They have to be special. Right? Not just what happens once nematodes evolve to survive better. Otherwise, why are we here?

It gets worse for this kind of philosophy as machine learning gets better. Machine learning is a rather simple operation replicated a huge number of times, fed with lightly filtered data about the world. As you add more units and feed in more raw data, it gets smarter.

Now we have a clue about how intelligence really works, and it's upsetting some people.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#126

Post by kklisura » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 9:43 PM UTC

jemmyw wrote: post #102

BasedAnon wrote: post #88

What's the deal with these things being lumped in with physics? This isn't physics this is just regular philosophy with some scientific sounding language. I feel like this is people reaching for religion but not wanting to admit it to themselves.

It's a shame to see so many comments engaged in this kind of pseudoscience. There's no evidence that consciousness is anything other than a state arising from the physical processes in our bodies. I'm open minded to hypothesis that are potentially testable, but people keep just repeating the implausible. I also hate that I keep reading that consciousness, or anything else, is a universe "hack" which is several levels…

> It's a shame to see so many comments engaged in this kind of pseudoscience.

You have Roger Penrose [1] interested in link to say between consciousness and physics [2]. Would you consider that to be pseudoscience?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Penrose

[2] https://nautil.us/roger-penrose-on-why-consciousness-does-no...

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#127

Post by amelius » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 9:44 PM UTC

some_furry wrote: post #120

crazygringo wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conscious awareness appears to be a fundamental aspect of the universe -- as fundamental as the four known fundamental forces -- and physics is concerned with describing the laws of the universe. How could consciousness not be lumped in with physics, from this perspective? It doesn't matter whether consciousness pervades the universe in a form of panpsychism, or is emergent out of interactions we already understand.…

> Conscious awareness appears to be a fundamental aspect of the universe -- as fundamental as the four known fundamental forces -- and physics is concerned with describing the laws of the universe. Why do you believe this to be true? If it's a self-evident observation, try explaining it to me like I'm 5.

Not the parent commenter, but perhaps this helps:

1. Some people believe that conscious awareness exists on top of physics. I.e., something happens and conscious awareness notes that it happens. Here there is a flow of information going from physics to (our) conscious awareness. But not necessarily in the other direction.

2. The above (1) is not likely to be the true. We discuss conscious awareness in this physical world. Hence physics "knows" that conscious awareness exists, and thus there is at least also a flow of information in the other direction.

One might go further, and start questioning whether it is physics that does not really exist, and only our conscious awareness exists ...

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#128

Post by BasedAnon » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 9:45 PM UTC

rvba wrote: post #101

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate that most education systems don’t teach that physics has its roots in philosophy and some of the most rigorous recent math stems from philosophy (Gödel) leading to vacuous gatekeeping comments like this.

I thought physics has its roots in mathmatics, but those religious articles never show any equations.

We can construct an analytical language to interrogate these claims, but that wouldn't change the underlying fact that it is not physics or math.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#129

Post by VirusNewbie » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 9:48 PM UTC

kklisura wrote: post #126

jemmyw wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a shame to see so many comments engaged in this kind of pseudoscience. There's no evidence that consciousness is anything other than a state arising from the physical processes in our bodies. I'm open minded to hypothesis that are potentially testable, but people keep just repeating the implausible. I also hate that I keep reading that consciousness, or anything else, is a universe "hack" which is several levels…

> It's a shame to see so many comments engaged in this kind of pseudoscience. You have Roger Penrose [1] interested in link to say between consciousness and physics [2]. Would you consider that to be pseudoscience? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Penrose [2] https://nautil.us/roger-penrose-on-why-consciousness-does-no...

Penrose, like it or not, has developed a fairly rigorous, if not flawed hypothesis that is quite a stark contrast between many philosophers who espouse such ideas as pan psychism.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#130

Post by some_furry » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 9:48 PM UTC

amelius wrote: post #127

some_furry wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Conscious awareness appears to be a fundamental aspect of the universe -- as fundamental as the four known fundamental forces -- and physics is concerned with describing the laws of the universe. Why do you believe this to be true? If it's a self-evident observation, try explaining it to me like I'm 5.

Not the parent commenter, but perhaps this helps: 1. Some people believe that conscious awareness exists on top of physics. I.e., something happens and conscious awareness notes that it happens. Here there is a flow of information going from physics to (our) conscious awareness. But not necessarily in the other direction. 2. The above (1) is not likely to be the true. We discuss conscious awareness in this physical w…

What about physics implies consciousness?

I've often heard some hand-wavy remarks about quantum physics, but they're largely unconvincing.

For example, a wavefunction will collapse because we use e.g. photons to measure a particle as it enters one of two slits. It's the act of measurement, not the introduction of a conscious mind, that causes the collapse. So that doesn't track.