Live data from Hacker News

Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

scientificamerican.com

41–50 of 326 posts

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#41
post #22

Donald Hoffman and Tom Campbell are interesting YouTube forays in this area.

I watched Hoffman’s Lex Fridman interview, it sounds like his idea is that our perceptions are like a user interface that abstracts reality so we don’t perceive reality as it actually is. Isn’t that well accepted already? We know we don’t sense everything, and our brains give us a highly compressed version of the senses we do have. But none of that matters when we use tools like cameras or microphones because they’re…

I see little in common between Hoffman’s interface theory of consciousness and merely stating that our minds filter out (lossily compress, etc.) information about reality. Hoffman appears to effectively suggest Kantian idealism: by claiming that perceived time-space and phenomena in it are more like icons on a screen, a representation of some abstract network of conscious agents, he takes a stab at the hard problem and turns materialistic understanding of causality (“neurones fire, therefore I think”) on its head (“I think, and it manifests itself as neurones firing”). Rather than filtering information about some external reality, minds are reality, whereas perceived time-space is a product of them filtering/compressing information about themselves.

Idealism of this sort is quite different from and has farther reaching implications than sticking to materialistic monism and likening our brains to meaty computers that have to filter out input about supposedly objectively existing space-time that they are a product of.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#42

I have been imersing myself in this subject and the gist of what I got is that consciousness collapses under the reductionist process currently employed in the scientific method. Moreover, the very framework in which the current scientific work is done might well be just an emergent data structure used by what we understand as consciousness to navigate whatever the objective reality is in a way that is simpler and mo…

You have a good grasp on this. Have you looked at Tom Campbell? He has a separate angle than Hoffman but very similar conclusions.

The batshit crazy thing about Tom is that he shows you ways that you can individually experiment and prove through your own experiences the things he's positing. His My Big Toe trilogy goes into all this, but I shudder to recommend it. Tedious slog.

If you really want to prove it to yourself, it's not too hard. This book by Kenneth Daz, "The Last Astral Projection Book You'll Ever Need", is the best way I've found, he's read endlessly and summarized it into a hundred pages.

So far I've rolled out of my body twice now. Floated through my front door and got down my road a fair ways. Fully conscious, able to make choices, full memory after returning to my body. No psychedelics involved. You can't of course talk to anyone about this. My wife knows but she's been naturally OBE'ing since she's a kid.

(Edit, I can't believe I'm not being down voted to oblivion here. Love HN).

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#43
post #6

> Since Galileo’s time the physical sciences have leaped forward, explaining the workings of the tiniest quarks to the largest galaxy clusters. But explaining things that reside “only in consciousness” Everything we know about anything is mediated through our subjective understanding and perception. Be it mathematical formulas that describe the universe or feelings about something. If you remove people, we don’t know…

> impossible to know anything about a universe that doesn’t include our perception of it The optimistic take for me is that this is a fundamental feature of the Universe.

Sounds true but is it? We can't perceive neutrinos.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#44
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's not a great insight - unless you have not studied physics before. It's the standard context for thermodynamics (macro) and statistical mechanics (micro) explanations. Sometimes called coarse-graining and fine-graining. For dark matter there are 3 potential levels: - micro would be be new dark subatomic particles (WIMPs), or sterile right-handed neutrinos in the Standard Model (see Turok); - meso is macroscop…

So according to you, nothing that anyone has discovered before is a great insight? Now, regarding the dark matter issue, maybe there are more levels that models can be separated in. It seems overly simplistic to separate the whole immensity of the universe in only 3 levels

It was a great insight by Boltzmann, and his intellectual heirs.

But that was circa 1877, around 150 years ago. It is not a great insight today. Please keep up.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#45
post #19

I was really hoping to see descriptions of some experiments being done to test this theory. What is a situation where a photon would act differently if it has consciousness than if it is merely an unthinking artifact of physical laws? Or a berry, or a fish, or a small plastic statue of a dragon, or a bong? Of course there may also be the problem that experiments that confirm this theory can very quickly lead you down…

Isn’t the measurement problem still potentially linked to consciousness? We don’t know why we experience one thing when reality is actually in a superposition of possibilities. It could be that our measurement devices cause quantum collapse, or they too exist in a superposition until we measure the measuring device.

See Tom Campbell above re new Double Slit experiments, he's addressing your specific issue here.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#46
post #26

I think it’s useful to think in terms of what we are conscious of . Meaning, that there is a subject and an object of consciousness. For example, I’d argue that qualia is not an inherent part of consciousness, it’s merely something we are conscious of . It’s plausible that qualia are inner workings in our brain that our brain is itself perceiving, and thus is conscious of. What I think confuses people is that we are…

> It’s plausible that qualia are inner workings in our brain that our brain is itself perceiving, and thus is conscious of.

This seems circular. Why would those inner workings not themselves give rise to consciousness, in the way you suppose second-order workings of the brain do?

> we are also conscious of our consciousness. That doesn’t need to mean that the subject and the object of consciousness are the same in that case: it could also mean that the “of”, i.e. the arrow between subject and object, is itself an object of consciousness.

Those are two different things, no? You can think about your consciousness, or you can think about your ability to think about your consciousness.

> Now, it’s very plausible that this “of” arrow in general is not a simple arrow, but rather a complex graph or network. Given the complexity of the brain, there is certainly ample space for myriads of such arrow-networks.

Meaning what? You're describing a different graph, I don't see how it bears on the simple one we started with.

> we manifestly can’t get a grasp on the subject without making it an object of consciousness

Again this seems circular. If you think about consciousness, then by definition the thing you're thinking about is consciousness.

> we would be completely unaware of it if it wasn’t also an object

Same again. If you aren't thinking about consciousness, then consciousness isn't currently something that you're thinking about. I'm not seeing the point here.

> what actually exists is only the “of” relation, and that the conscious subject is really just formed out of those

I'm not convinced. Our ability to be conscious of our consciousness is of no particular relevance to the deeper question of how consciousness arises. Many animal species clearly have some form of consciousness, but are probably incapable of the sort of abstract reasoning needed to be conscious of their consciousness. I'm skeptical of any theory whose starting point is the human ability to do so.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#47
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So according to you, nothing that anyone has discovered before is a great insight? Now, regarding the dark matter issue, maybe there are more levels that models can be separated in. It seems overly simplistic to separate the whole immensity of the universe in only 3 levels

It was a great insight by Boltzmann, and his intellectual heirs. But that was circa 1877, around 150 years ago. It is not a great insight today. Please keep up.

You mean it’s not a novel insight to you

It’s still a great insight, regardless of who is remembered in history for coming up with it first

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#48

I was really hoping to see descriptions of some experiments being done to test this theory. What is a situation where a photon would act differently if it has consciousness than if it is merely an unthinking artifact of physical laws? Or a berry, or a fish, or a small plastic statue of a dragon, or a bong? Of course there may also be the problem that experiments that confirm this theory can very quickly lead you down…

Take a look at Tom Campbell's current iteration of the double slit. (I am loosely/poorly summarizing). He's predicting that you'll get wave like behavior with an observer at the slit if the recorder for the observer is turned off. The observer is still turned on. Fascinating implications. Should have results in the coming year. Preliminary reports are encouraging. He's crowd funded this setup and its ongoing: https:/…

I keep on thinking I should get ahold of his book. Oh hey I just checked his site and it's not only on Amazon any more, now a copy is on its way. :)

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#50
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a novel insight, it's a standard way of interrogating systems at various levels and has been in common intellectual discourse for some time now.

So? What’s your point? That it can’t be used for anything else because some people, including you, already knew about it, hence it can’t be applied in novel ways? Btw, no one said it was a novel insight

It's not a great insight for you today, or a recent workshop on consciousness.

It is ~150 years old and it's a well-known foundation for all current discussion of emergence in general, and consciousness in particular.

Post reply on HN