Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#11

Post by uoaei » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 2:55 PM UTC

jasfi wrote: post #3

I suspect so. But we need a way to find out what it's made of and measure it. It seems to be very elusive in that regard.

The purpose of Goff's choice for the title of his book Galileo's Error is explained in the introduction: that Galileo limited science to only things that are quantifiable, and completely ignores qualitative factors. Note the common etymology with the word qualia. Some way to expose evidence of consciousness to external observers may be necessary or it may be impossible given the apparati that science currently provides.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#12

Post by FollowingTheDao » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 2:58 PM UTC

uoaei wrote: post #7

Especially considering recent advances in the neurosciences, and where they intersect with systems theory (see: Friston), it seems inevitable to conclude that learning systems -- mammalian nervous systems being quite architecturally specialized but nonetheless made of the same stuff as the rest of the universe -- generally experience consciousness. Note for the layperson: consciousness is not necessarily awareness (m…

> he null hypothesis states that everything should be considered conscious until proven otherwise.

Sorry, no. The null hypothesis is generally assumed to remain possibly true.

So, the null hypothesis states that everything should be considered possibly conscious until proven otherwise.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#13

Post by FollowingTheDao » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 2:59 PM UTC

nico wrote: post #9

FollowingTheDao wrote: post #5

If consciousness is "the state of being awake and aware of one's surroundings" then it depends on dualism, ie, this and that. Is the fabric of the universe dual or non-dual? If it is non-dual it can have no consciousness. Because the universe would be able to see a "non-universe". IMHO, consciousness arises out of the universe via the creation of duality by the human mind. The fabric is unknowable and that frustrates…

Unfortunately we will never truly know, as the only way we can experience the universe is through our consciousness, in that sense, from a human perception perspective, the universe and our consciousness are inextricably intertwined and any theory or explanation we try to come up with is just our own subjective observations

We do not experience the universe through our consciousness. We cannot comprehend the universe through consciousness. Consciousness is a subset of the universe.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#14

Post by nico » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 3:01 PM UTC

> many phenomena that can’t be inferred from the goings-on at the microscopic level, it is nonetheless a real, emergent feature of the macroscopic world. He offered the physics of gases as a parallel example. At the micro level, one talks of atoms, molecules and forces; at the macro level, one speaks of pressure, volume and temperature. These are two kinds of explanations, depending on the “level” being studied

Putting aside the issue of consciousness for a moment, this is actually a great insight

I wonder if something like this should be applied in physics/astronomy to solve the whole dark matter issue

At a “micro level”, we can talk about planets, stars and gravity, but maybe at a “macro level”, those concepts stop being useful to describe the behavior of the universe, and different models might be needed

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#15

Post by bashinator » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 3:02 PM UTC

nico wrote: post #6

> Since Galileo’s time the physical sciences have leaped forward, explaining the workings of the tiniest quarks to the largest galaxy clusters. But explaining things that reside “only in consciousness” Everything we know about anything is mediated through our subjective understanding and perception. Be it mathematical formulas that describe the universe or feelings about something. If you remove people, we don’t know…

> impossible to know anything about a universe that doesn’t include our perception of it

The optimistic take for me is that this is a fundamental feature of the Universe.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#16

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 3:02 PM UTC

egypturnash wrote: post #8

I was really hoping to see descriptions of some experiments being done to test this theory. What is a situation where a photon would act differently if it has consciousness than if it is merely an unthinking artifact of physical laws? Or a berry, or a fish, or a small plastic statue of a dragon, or a bong? Of course there may also be the problem that experiments that confirm this theory can very quickly lead you down…

[deleted]

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#17

Post by swader999 » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 3:05 PM UTC

egypturnash wrote: post #8

I was really hoping to see descriptions of some experiments being done to test this theory. What is a situation where a photon would act differently if it has consciousness than if it is merely an unthinking artifact of physical laws? Or a berry, or a fish, or a small plastic statue of a dragon, or a bong? Of course there may also be the problem that experiments that confirm this theory can very quickly lead you down…

Take a look at Tom Campbell's current iteration of the double slit. (I am loosely/poorly summarizing). He's predicting that you'll get wave like behavior with an observer at the slit if the recorder for the observer is turned off. The observer is still turned on. Fascinating implications.

Should have results in the coming year. Preliminary reports are encouraging.

He's crowd funded this setup and its ongoing: https://youtu.be/72qVppAoCc8?feature=shared

More in depth: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OZUqtxdT0QY&pp=ygUYVG9tIENhbXB...

He's got an update from this August but it's just about waiting on labs and universities to complete it.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#18

Post by nico » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 3:06 PM UTC

FollowingTheDao wrote: post #13

nico wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately we will never truly know, as the only way we can experience the universe is through our consciousness, in that sense, from a human perception perspective, the universe and our consciousness are inextricably intertwined and any theory or explanation we try to come up with is just our own subjective observations

We do not experience the universe through our consciousness. We cannot comprehend the universe through consciousness. Consciousness is a subset of the universe.

What I meant is that whatever we experience of the universe (thinking in dualistic terms as us being a separate thing from “the rest of the universe”), then that experience is happening through, or in, our consciousness

And sure, we are technically not separate from the universe, we are very much immersed in, and inseparable from it

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#19

Post by choxi » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 3:07 PM UTC

egypturnash wrote: post #8

I was really hoping to see descriptions of some experiments being done to test this theory. What is a situation where a photon would act differently if it has consciousness than if it is merely an unthinking artifact of physical laws? Or a berry, or a fish, or a small plastic statue of a dragon, or a bong? Of course there may also be the problem that experiments that confirm this theory can very quickly lead you down…

Isn’t the measurement problem still potentially linked to consciousness? We don’t know why we experience one thing when reality is actually in a superposition of possibilities. It could be that our measurement devices cause quantum collapse, or they too exist in a superposition until we measure the measuring device.

Re: Is consciousness part of the fabric of the universe?

#20

Post by DFHippie » Sat, Sep 30, 2023, 3:09 PM UTC

"Asserting that consciousness is fundamental and ubiquitous does nothing to shed light on the way an experience of blueness is the way it is, and not some other way. Nor does it explain anything about the possible functions of consciousness, nor why consciousness is lost in states such as dreamless sleep, general anaesthesia, and coma." -- Anil Seth, from the article

This bit -- "nor why consciousness is lost in states such as dreamless sleep, general anaesthesia, and coma" -- begs the question. We don't actually know that consciousness is lost in these states, just that people report no memory of consciousness when emerging from these states. This is a fact about memory, not consciousness.

And this comes back to the basic problem of consciousness: we have no test of it other than personal report. If you assume that anything that does not tell you it is conscious is not conscious, then you're left with consciousness being an emergent property. Somehow Bob was without consciousness and now he has it again! What changed? But you don't actually have proof of this, it's just an assumption. And a reason to be suspicious of it is that it is a flattering and convenient assumption. It means many things and beings have no moral valence. You can leave them out of your ethics. Arguably it isn't consciousness but suffering or pleasure that is relevant here, but consciousness is a necessary ingredient. "That lobster looks like it suffers when it is plunged into boiling water, but it isn't conscious, just a zombie. I can do what I want with it."

It seems to me the Occam's razor solution is not that consciousness is an emergent behavior. The modeling of the world in neurons is a physical thing that we can measure, and replicate in software. But with this we haven't gotten any closer to explaining why sensation is associated with some such models and not others, that there are two states: consciousness and unconsciousness. The added bit that Occam's razor trims away is the assertion that there are two states, not just the one observed state: consciousness. Panpsychism -- or cosmopsychism or whatever -- is the Occam's razor solution.