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Tesla sued for severe harassment of black workers at California plant

theguardian.com

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Re: Tesla sued for severe harassment of black workers at California plant

#121

Post by padjo »

richbell wrote: post #54
padjo wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think the idea is to convert neo-nazis. People feel pretty powerless to help fight racism and doing small things like this help them feel a bit better. Also, changing language that explicitly says “white good”, “black bad” can’t really hurt. It takes very little effort and “allow list” is actually clearer anyway.

> Also, changing language that explicitly says “white good”, “black bad” can’t really hurt. It takes very little effort and “allow list” is actually clearer anyway. That isn't what they say at all . The only way that argument holds any water is with profound ignorance. It's the same line of thinking as saying that "red team" is offensive because "red" used to be a derogatory term for native Americans. https://news.yc…

So why do we exclusively use blacklist to refer to bad things we want to exclude?

Re: Tesla sued for severe harassment of black workers at California plant

#122

Post by dri_ft »

olalonde wrote: post #7

Wouldn't it be more effective to pursue criminal charges against the individuals directly responsible? Graffitis, particularly when they involve symbols as disturbing as a noose, are not just offensive, they're criminal acts. They could even be classified as hate crimes or death threats. The perpetrators should be held responsible. Otherwise, they'll simply continue this harmful behavior in their future workplaces, k…

>Graffitis

Graffiti is already plural, or at least uncountable.

Re: Tesla sued for severe harassment of black workers at California plant

#123

Post by OscarDC »

dangus wrote: post #116
about3fitty wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would like to ask: do you have a position on the following? - an allowlist/blocklist to replace whitelist/blacklist -primary/replica to replace master/slave Also, how old are you? I’m not young but not old and I don’t associate racial overtones to the latter terms

[flagged]

I agree with the most part of what you wrote and I don't want to turn this even more into an unconstructive flame war than it already is. I just wanted to reply on the following point:

> I knew HN had a bunch of conservative and libertarian tech bros but…holy shit. This whole thread is unhinged.

Many people on that thread seem to not be american so thinking of them through a US political lens may not be pertinent - the politically-loaded, US-centric, source of the change may also be the source of the frustration with it in the first place (see the bottom of this reply).

Just on this point, I consider myself left-leaning (and from what I can see, US democrats would mostly be at the center - and Biden center-right - of the political spectrum in my country), yet I share the point of view of the other commenters regarding the "master" change and the ways it is pushed.

> In what universe is master/slave not racist

For the "master" part at least, I would say most people do not link it to slavery because most people are not from an english-speaking country.

For me, when I read master I may just think about master recordings. That does not mean that it may or may not have a racism-linked origin (I have no idea about that) but understand that many people around the world don't do the connection. Then, as it is mostly US people that push for other to change that name vehemently, this make many people think that those are americans that want to push their current political ideology down someone else's throat (which has a completely different cultural and political background) and may elicit a strong response.

Re: Tesla sued for severe harassment of black workers at California plant

#125

Post by abenga »

bitcharmer wrote: post #110
threeseed wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be meaningless to you. But it's not meaningless to other people. Now you can choose not to care about their opinion and be dismissive of their integrity by claiming it's only for social status. But you're never going to hire the best engineers if that's the approach you take. I've worked with some of the very best in the industry and never seen anyone do great things by being intolerant of people.

> I've worked with some of the very best in the industry and never seen anyone do great things by being intolerant of people Same here. It's my 23rd year as a software engineer and I'm lucky to be a part of this crowd. Tonnes of tolerant, talented, brilliant people. Being tolerant doesn't however doesn't mean we like being subjected to bullshit like the master -> main change.

It's just writing a shorter word. Why does it bug you so much. Unless you want to make bigger changes to society to counter the effects of racism instead? Cause we'd like that.

Re: Tesla sued for severe harassment of black workers at California plant

#126

Post by Akronymus »

nebula8804 wrote: post #74
Akronymus wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO the newest wave of racism stems from the blowback to racist policies like affirmative action and similar. (for example, stipends only gor certain races and such)

We are talking about a % of a minority position since only ~38% of Americans have a bachelors degree or higher. How many people really care about this issue given that majority of people in the country don't even have/did not pursue a degree from one of these institutions that had affirmative action policies.

AA is not just in schools. But also many workplaces have, what amounts to, quotas for having %ages of specific ethnicities.

Also, even if it is only 40%ish that went for a bachelors or higher, most people know at least a few people who did.

And "why should we care if it affects a minority" seems quite the dangerous path to go down on.

Re: Tesla sued for severe harassment of black workers at California plant

#127

Post by viraptor »

lionkor wrote: post #92
viraptor wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Treating them worse based on which bucket you put them in is racist. Taking about various segments of population, what specific issues they experience and why is not that.

Thats not what "racism" is. While its one way to define racism, the most general and eay to understand one is racism: > The belief that each race has distinct and intrinsic attributes. And that is what you're doing. Its not about oppression or discrimination, its about the (wrong) belief that each race has some intrinsic properties. When you start with this, you eventually end up putting people of different races on…

> The belief that each race has distinct and intrinsic attributes. / And that is what you're doing.

I'm not sure where you got that from. Did you respond to the right message?

Re: Tesla sued for severe harassment of black workers at California plant

#128

Post by olalonde »

abenga wrote: post #69
olalonde wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The criticism is that putting people in buckets based on their DNA and ancestry is what racists do and not something that we should encourage and normalize in 2023. We should minimize the importance of ethnicity and race, not emphasize it. As a staunch individualist and someone who fervently opposes racism, it's disheartening to observe the USA trending in such a direction.

Hand wringing about "placing people in buckets" is one the last things we need to worry about when it comes to dealing with racism and it's effect on victims of racism. Like, "now we are colourblind, hooray! racism is finished!" While ignoring how disadvantaged people who suffered discrimination in the past (and still do) continue to feel the effects of institutionalised racism, regardless of any changes in law.

I know your intentions are noble but the alternative approach promotes the idea that racial groups are very real and matter. It promotes the belief that one "belongs" to a race, that members of a race have a shared interest, etc. It's a mindset that often leads to racism.

I grew up in a place where colorblindness was the prevalent philosophy and somehow, racism was much less of a problem than what I've witnessed in the USA. People of different colors mixed up and race or skin color was almost never mentioned. I don't think I even had a concept of what racism was until high school when it was taught in class. I can't help but have a suspicion that people who are so incredulous at the idea of "colorblindness" are simply projecting their own racist beliefs (e.g. "I am not colorblind... how could anyone be?").

Finally, I have no issue with compensating people that were direct victims of institutionalized racism. However, I take issue with the idea of assigning benefits or penalties based on factors beyond an individual's control, such as one's ancestors' or genetic makeup. If the idea is to help less fortunate people, we should develop programs that help less fortunate people, regardless of their genetics or ancestry.

Re: Tesla sued for severe harassment of black workers at California plant

#129

Post by surgical_fire »

dangus wrote: post #116
about3fitty wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would like to ask: do you have a position on the following? - an allowlist/blocklist to replace whitelist/blacklist -primary/replica to replace master/slave Also, how old are you? I’m not young but not old and I don’t associate racial overtones to the latter terms

[flagged]

> I’m honestly a bit shocked at the reactionary nature of this entire thread. I knew HN had a bunch of conservative and libertarian tech bros but…holy shit. This whole thread is unhinged.

I am not from the US. I am not white. I am typically in the left (to what's considered left in the countries I lived in). And I really dislike all the political correctness that seeped into tech, and generally comes from the US.

All the jargon tiptoeing is extremely condescending, as if non-white people are too moronic and/or weak-minded to understand that words have different meanings in different contexts.

And, no, thinking that does not make me reactionary and/or libertarian. The very much American behavior of pointing fingers at any minor thing and scream "Racist" will not define my political leanings.

Re: Tesla sued for severe harassment of black workers at California plant

#130

Post by nec4b »

padjo wrote: post #121
richbell wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, changing language that explicitly says “white good”, “black bad” can’t really hurt. It takes very little effort and “allow list” is actually clearer anyway. That isn't what they say at all . The only way that argument holds any water is with profound ignorance. It's the same line of thinking as saying that "red team" is offensive because "red" used to be a derogatory term for native Americans. https://news.yc…

So why do we exclusively use blacklist to refer to bad things we want to exclude?

For the same reason black card is considered exclusive and prestigious. Maybe you are the problem, associating everything with race and in if in your mind black is inferior, then everything using black as an adjective would be negative for you.
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