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EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals

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Re: EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals

#551

It is understandable why Apple wants to keep its current grip on iOS indefinitely. What I don't understand is why some people defend it, on this very forum! One commenter simultaneously defended gay marriages - "if you don't like gay marriages, don't get married to gays" - and defended the Apple's monopoly - "I like that there is only one Appstore and developers won't force me to sideload".

It comes down to this: I support companies being free to sell the product they want and users being free to buy what they want. If Apple sells a phone that's locked down, a piece of junk, wonderful, or anything in between that's between them and their customers. It's not the government's role to step in and prevent those voluntary transactions IMO. I would allow exceptions for grievous bodily injury and so on in my o…

Also, I'll add this:

Of all the major and minor players in this space, Apple has by far taken the most user-centric, privacy-first, security-centric stance. And they have done so over and over and over again.

Have they been perfect? Of course not. But every instance where they've lapsed, they've made geniune efforts to improve the situation. Are there ways they can still improve? Of course. But the direction has been clear and unambiguous. And as a result, they've earned my trust. This, in an environment where quite literally everyone else has repeatedly proven themselves untrustworthy.

Re: EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals

#552
post #166

Fucking good. It's bullshit that you can only run Safari on iOS or that the App Store is the only store you can use. Yes, I understand the security implications of a third-party browser having deeper integrations into the OS and potential battery life concerns. I also don't care. I want to run Firefox on my phone. The actual thing. With containers and extensions. Let Safari compete on the merits. I want the choice of…

You care enough to buy iPhones and iOS, but not enough to buy Android and do all those things.

So I should be settled with inferior hardware, and huge privacy violations? Because the only way out from the latter is GrapheneOS on the Pixel, which is definitely not as great hardware-wise as the last few iphones, and then we didn’t even get to other properties like proper second-hand market and support.

Re: EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals

#553
post #267
post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like Apple mandating WebKit is the only thing holding v8/Chromium from a total monopoly, the App Store monopoly is the only thing holding back "use Meta omni-permission store or get cut off from FB/IG/WhatsApp". And then Meta getting most companies to use their store because they'll take 10% and just the data.

Great, and then we can properly break up Facebook as well as Google. I see no downsides here.

Yes, please, let's do this. And Amazon too.

In general; let's take that whole monopoly thing serious again, together with regulatory capture.

I'm no free market liberal, quite the contrary. But competition is *good* and we should have more competition between these huge companies that basically make a living from extracting rent.

Re: EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals

#554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t want something shittier that I will invariably have to learn about to remove from my families phones. It suits me fine if it doesn’t exist at all.

Just because optional sideloading might create a mild inconvenience for you, you support the abusive policy that creates a huge problem for millions of users.

If we wanted sideloading we would have chosen a different phone. I looked at the market and chose the best phone for my needs.

Re: EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals

#555
post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great, and then we can properly break up Facebook as well as Google. I see no downsides here.

I don't see what breaking up Google or Facebook accomplishes, it changes absolutely nothing for consumers.

It changes at least one thing; now there is Google1 and Google2 and FB1 and FB2 and they offer the same services to different prices.

Now the consumer can chose between more competitors.

Re: EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals

#556
A lot of this feels like it overlaps with the right to repair. Repairing a physical device is really about changing it and being able to change it — in particular, not being obstructed from doing so.

That feels very close, in spirit, to being able to run one’s own software on the device. Another natural extension is if one can run one’s own apps then that right ought also to extend to the entire device — the OS and the firmware.

The app / OS boundary is of interest to the computer scientists, but functionally there isn’t any distinction to the end user between the code that renders the heart under the cat video, the code that notices me touch the screen, the code which sends the JSON “{like:10295892983}” over the network, and the code which turns that message into radio waves.

Re: EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals

#557

Good lord, this is the whinge that never ends, isn’t it? If you want an Android phone, dozens if not hundreds of companies will sell you one. You can quite literally choose the level of openness you desire. Personally I prefer the Apple ecosystem where things just tend to work well. It would be difficult to care less about running something other than Safari on an iPhone. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy Apple’s produ…

I downvoted this because you're ignoring iMessage. The fact that Apple purposefully not only gives Android users a shitty experience when communicating with iOS users, but also ensures that the presence of an Android user can break the experience for everyone else in a group chat (e.g. degraded videos now for everyone) in iMessage is a blatant attempt to abuse their monopoly power (in the US at least where iMessage d…

I suggest you stop drinking the Google Koolaid, they’re not being honest.

> The fact that Apple purposefully not only gives Android users a shitty experience when communicating with iOS users

You mean utilizing the standardized SMS and MMS protocols? How is that purposeful? Just because they refuse to rollout iMessage on Android?

> but also ensures that the presence of an Android user can break the experience for everyone else in a group chat (e.g. degraded videos now for everyone) in iMessage

Again, they switch to SMS/MMS to be compatible with Android devices. Video quality (and photo quality for the master) can only be as good as the limitations of MMS.

Contrary to what Google implies, Apple isn’t doing something on purpose to make videos shitty, the MMS protocol simply can’t handle original quality photos.

> is a blatant attempt to abuse their monopoly power (in the US at least where iMessage dominates)

No, a blatant attempt at abusing a monopoly power would be them saying they drop support for SMS and MMS so you can’t text to Android users anymore because people keep repeating nonsense talking points fed by Google so they’d rather just not deal with the headache.

> Apple doesn't even need to make an Android version of iMessage, they just need to support RCS instead of SMS/MMS: https://www.android.com/get-the-message/

There is no “RCS”, not as a working standard anyways.

The BS Google is peddling is their proprietary flavor of RCS that runs on their Jibe servers, Google’s own attempt at iMessage if you will.

Google wants Apple to adopt “G iMessage” or at the very least hook Apple’s iMessage into Google’s proprietary “RCS” implementation, presumably in part to get a whiff of all the data that would be routed through their servers.

We know this based on slew of things:

1. Half of the features listed on that propaganda website aren’t part of the RCS “standard”, they are however part of Google’s proprietary RCS implementation. So it stands to reason that Google is talking about their proprietary RCS solution

2. Google is using “RCS” as a brand name, when they talk about “RCS” they talk about their proprietary flavor of RCS, similar to how Apple uses the brand “iMessage”[0]

3. Pretty much all of the “RCS” out in the world is Google’s proprietary RCS implementation that runs on Jobe servers. The original RCS standard was conceived by the GSMA (its full members being carriers) intended to be implemented at the carrier level. Carriers however had no appetite of implementing it so now what passes as “RCS” is almost exclusively run by Google. This is either done via the Google branded Messaging app or with a white label construction bearing the logo of carriers and manufacturers via either a direct relationship with Jibe or one of the middlemen[1] that sell Jibe’s services. This means that globally, whether offered by an OEM or carrier, close to all “RCS” offered is just Google’s proprietary implementation of RCS.

The only thing stopping Google from having a true monopoly on texting services is the fact that Apple refuses to run the iMessage network through Google’s Jibe service.

If what is being touted as RCS would’ve been a true standard like SMS or MMS then I could see Apple adopting it as a fallback option like they already do with SMS and MMS, but since the handful of specs that are cobbled together as a “standard” are hardly any better than those two ancient standards and since what Google is pushing for is essentially Apple adopting Google’s own iMessage, I don’t see it ever happening.

0: https://www.phonearena.com/news/google-drops-chat-for-rcs_id...

1: https://jibe.google.com/partners/messaging-partners/

Re: EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals

#558
post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes... so give Meta a couple of years of all gas no brakes with regards to user data while the legislators play catch up. They have gone for Apple out of pride and short sighted electoral strategy. The answer is to deal with Facebook(Meta) and Google(Alphabet) et cetera first. Pumping money into Gecko development. This is serving up regular people who use smart phones (which in the west are essentially mandatory)…

What’s your explanation for Japan doing the same to Apple? It’s hardly only the EU who has them (and Google, and the rest of Big Tech) in their crosshairs. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36393809 > regular people who use smart phones That’s the beauty of it. I’m not convinced that ‘regular people’ are going to have the patience to deal with Meta forcing them to get and manage yet another damn account to use Fac…

Elon is already attempting the next step with X.

There is going to be a race to become the WeChat of the west.

Governments more generally need to deal with tech and the EU is the only one with the heft and the stones to do it. But this piecemeal approach of trying to hit each of these giants like this ends up paralysed by court processes and intervention from the American Government.

Network effects are powerful. And there is a huge incumbency advantage past a certain point.

Meta, Google, Microsoft, and X are the big winners out of this decision.

Competition on storefront take will be slow.

Re: EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals

#559
post #166

Fucking good. It's bullshit that you can only run Safari on iOS or that the App Store is the only store you can use. Yes, I understand the security implications of a third-party browser having deeper integrations into the OS and potential battery life concerns. I also don't care. I want to run Firefox on my phone. The actual thing. With containers and extensions. Let Safari compete on the merits. I want the choice of…

>you can only run Safari on iOS Apple mandating WebKit is the only thing holding v8 back from a total monopoly, while WebKit itself has no chance of being a monopoly in the forseeable future, so I doubt there's a good anti-competitive case to be made for forcing Apple to stop doing this. It would only accelerate the monopolisation of the browser market if this happened. It would be good for consumers in the short ter…

> WebKit itself has no chance of being a monopoly in the forseeable future

Of course it won't, because Apple restricts it to run only on devices built by Apple.

They had a Safari for Windows many years ago, then killed it.

Re: EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals

#560
post #535

I’m going to get pilloried for this but I like the rather draconian heavy handed way Apple keeps iOS locked down. It’s an appliance. I can trust it. If or when it gets opened up I’ll still stick to all the Apple or first party stores and things. That the iPhone is locked down and android is open is a feature and difference that consumers choose I think.

I dont agree with it at all, but you are right, people buy apple because need to trust somebody and they trust apple to keep making the right product for them. I don't even consider them superior but certainly trustworthy. Whatever changes apple implements would have to be easily revertable so people can go back to their golden prison.

It’s not a prison to keep me in. It’s a wall to keep bad things out.
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