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Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

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Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#71

Post by pingswept »

tomp wrote: post #58
brown9-2 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly this seems like its the same thing as you guys in the US not being able to say merry christmas because it might offend someone. Is this a common perception of those outside the US about what goes on inside the US?

Yes. I find it extremely funny/awkward that you say police person instead of policeman/woman, flight attendant instead of steward/stewardess, horizontally challenged instead of fat, can't say fuck on TV (but it's ok to carry guns and kill millions of innocent Afghans and support Israel's invasion of Palestine), that you can't drink under 18/21 (I don't know which one) not even if your parents are around (and you call…

I live in the US. I think most of those things happen a lot less than you think. To take what I think is the most extreme example, in the ~35 years that I've been parsing speech successfully, I don't think I've ever heard someone refer to a fat person as "horizontally challenged."

Maybe this stuff just happens on TV?

One exception: not saying "fuck" on TV. That's accurate and fucking insane.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#72

Post by Strallus »

DanBC wrote: post #69
Strallus wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most slang words for penis (and other slang words describing men) are also normal words. (wood, hard, sausage, pork, balls) This is not the case with slang words for the female anatomy, which usually have no place in daily conversation. Google "slang for penis" and "slang for vagina" if you don't believe me/don't know very many slang words. Consequently, something a women would say in bed is more likely to crop up in…

That's a little bit hetero normative. About the sexism: She didn't make a big fuss. She just coded a neat funny bot that only talks when triggered by a certain joke. She's highlighting how tiresome some jokes are when repeated too often. She's not say "Toxic Environment because of constant sexist remarks"; she isn't calling for anyone to be disciplined or sacked. She's just talking to people.

I'm not calling her out for making a big fuss. I was just pointing out that, as far as I can tell, this joke really doesn't have its root in sexism.

Other people are saying the joke is sexist, I'm saying it's not. That's all.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#73

Post by unalone »

Strallus wrote: post #60
unalone wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles [...] devaluation based on a person's sex Here're the categories you could argue the bot falls into. The point of the "that's what she said" is to point out when phrases sound like something a woman might have said in bed or during some sort of sexual activity, furthering the already staggeringly vast perception our society has of women as pr…

Most slang words for penis (and other slang words describing men) are also normal words. (wood, hard, sausage, pork, balls) This is not the case with slang words for the female anatomy, which usually have no place in daily conversation. Google "slang for penis" and "slang for vagina" if you don't believe me/don't know very many slang words. Consequently, something a women would say in bed is more likely to crop up in…

The fact that the woman is only talking because she's in bed is what makes her a sexual object. The shes of this world say a whole lot more than cheesy bedroom euphemisms, you know. But the joke is situated on the premise that it's cool to brag about what a man's made a woman say while fucking her, or, its opposite, that it's embarrassing and unmanly if a woman's been disappointed by a man in the bedroom. In either case, the woman is reduced to the thing that is fucked; her only value is that she can tell the man how well he's fucking her, or how poorly.

I know plenty of slang words, thank you, because I'm more than twelve years old. And a part of the gender/sexism discussion revolves precisely around how male-gendered slang is used differently than female-gendered slang; think about how men insult men by saying they don't have balls, or that they're a pussy; the suggestion is that womanhood corresponds to weakness. The ways in which we learn to speak to one another is a key issue.

"The word itself makes some men uncomfortable. Vagina. Yes, they don't like hearing it and find it difficult to say whereas without batting an eye a man will refer to his dick or his rod or his Johnson."

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#74

Post by unalone »

DanBC wrote: post #64
unalone wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? What do you want? We want women to shut up and stop telling us that there's a problem with how we behave, because it's rude to tell people there's something innately wrong with their behavior. Also it takes so much time and effort on our parts to try and behave like better people that it hardly seems like we should bother. The problem, for many people, is not that the issue is being handled indelicately. It's…

I have a neuro-atypicality that makes it very hard to tell when people do not literally mean what they say. That atypicality is shared by many programmers. I hope that you do not receive many mistaken down votes from people who mis-understand your comments!

Ha, no worries! It's just Internet points. :)

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#75

Post by raganwald »

CompiledCode wrote: post #43
rmc wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, ads (etc.) that portray people as bad based on their gender are wrong. However men are still in an advantageous position. widespread anti-male laws They are small in number compared to the widespread anti-female laws and customs.

Can you give an example? In almost all states, if the wife gets pregnant by another man, the man is still on the hook for child support for the next 18+ years... even if she divorces him and marries her lover. I can't think of an equivalent anti-female law with such devastating long-term impact on the woman. I know this message might be off tangent for the HN board. But if we're discussing anti-female sexist culture…

Your argument says "since (unfair child support laws) then (men treated unfairly) thus not(sexist anti-women culture)"

The problem with your argument is that you are not espousing a widely held belief about child support laws being "unfair to men." Thus, a discussion about your argument is likely to devolve into long exchanges about children's rights and anecdotes about ridiculous edge case judgments on both sides.

Which is fine, but I think it would be two steps removed from what you're trying to establish, namely that the unfair sexism is somehow balanced. If you're going to construct an argument of the form A -> B -> C, I suggest you pick an "A" that is beyond dispute so we can focus on the validity of A -> B and B -> C.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#76

Post by vasco »

FeministHacker wrote: post #48
vasco wrote: post #5

I think this would never happen where I live. Honestly this seems like its the same thing as you guys in the US not being able to say merry christmas because it might offend someone. What's so wrong with being offended anyway? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHMoDt3nSHs&t=3m30s I think people over there just take everything to seriously.

http://therealkatie.net/blog/2012/mar/21/lighten-up/ Lighten up, I didn't mean it, I didn't intend to upset you, so it must be ok!

What I said is that where I live its not like this. Girls wouldn't make a fuss about this, and would probably make more sexual jokes then guys actually. So yes maybe in comparison you guys need to lighten up as a society or something.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#77

Post by ceol »

marvin wrote: post #65
rmc wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, ads (etc.) that portray people as bad based on their gender are wrong. However men are still in an advantageous position. widespread anti-male laws They are small in number compared to the widespread anti-female laws and customs.

There's no need to dismiss CompiledCode's point. The things he is pointing out are very real problems which affect men as a gender, without regard to the specific person. There is real sex discrimination against men going on, particularly in the US (I'm from Europe). The best response to sexism isn't to turn the discussion into an antagonistic debate with men vs. women. Both sides have legitimate issues which need to…

> Both sides have legitimate issues which need to be addressed if we are ever going to have real gender equality.

They do not need to be addressed at the same time as one another. You do not need to bring up sexism against men every single time an article about sexism against women appears on the front page.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#78

Post by DanBC »

Harkins wrote: post #59
coob wrote: post #4

I'm struggling to come up with an answer to this question: Has technology ever solved issues with social etiquette?

Yes. An example was posted here in the last few weeks - there's a startup whose name I can't remember that plans meetups of three men and three women. They had a serious problem with cancellations, which was solved by requiring the canceller to record a voicemail to be played to the other people. Cancellations fell off 80% or more. (I'm sorry, I can't remember more specifics - anyone have the link?)

Grouper?

(http://blog.joingrouper.com/intro-to-social-hacking-how-we-l...)

(http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3695748)

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#79

Post by drhowarddrfine »

Jem wrote: post #51
unalone wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was worried about people thinking I meant what I said when I wrote it. Then I decided that maybe the fact that people could theoretically take it seriously was a good reason to keep it how it was.

It certainly made me think - I'll even admit that for a moment my cursor was hovering over the down vote arrow. It's sad, but it made me think BECAUSE there are people who think like this (and I've seen similar serious responses here on HN.)

Oh shutup.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#80

Post by pyre »

olalonde wrote: post #54

I have noticed an interesting double standard on HN: while working in porn is perfectly fine, saying TWSS jokes is sexist because it objectivizes women as sexual objects.

The difference is that working in porn is a choice to make yourself a sex-object, while objectifying women with sexist jokes is not a choice by the people affected (women). To retain the same context, it would be the difference between choosing to work in porn vs. that choice being made for you.
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