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New York employers must include pay rates in job ads under new state law

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Re: New York employers must include pay rates in job ads under new state law

#201

Post by sarchertech »

coffeebeqn wrote: post #163
sarchertech wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’re making 3x what other people at your level are making, you’re at the wrong level. Unless you’re already at the highest level. If you’re worth that much more, I’m surprised that you don’t push for a higher level. The point of levels is to provide an external signal of competence. And perhaps this law will push companies towards doing a better job of that. In nearly 20 years of experience pay doesn’t generally…

Why would you push for more responsibility? If I could get paid like a technical leader but without the extra stress then what’s wrong with that?

Who is going to pay you 3x what the rest of the people at your level make without a corresponding increase in expectations.

The reason you’d push for a higher level is because it makes it clearer to the next company that you’re capable of higher level work. If you’re not doing higher level work then how are you justifying a 3x salary?

Re: New York employers must include pay rates in job ads under new state law

#202

Post by sarchertech »

bpodgursky wrote: post #141
viraptor wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be also a sign of poorly defined levels. If you're calling people the same i.e. set the same expectations, but pay them 3x different amount, something's weird with the org.

> poorly defined levels Obsession over crisply-defined levels is a sign of an organization that is too far up its own a*** to actually get work done.

There’s a difference between obsession over clearly defined levels and someone making 3x what everyone else at their level is making.

When you’ve got a team of midlevel engineers making $150k and one guy making $450k maybe it’s time to bump that person up.

Re: New York employers must include pay rates in job ads under new state law

#203

Post by altdataseller »

Eumenes wrote: post #10

Companies generally use third party compensation benchmark tools like Radford, which are total garbage. They base comp off title, and these tools are stuck in the stone age (think 'programmer analyst' as a SWE). When recruiting and/or engineering decide to post a job, they need to consult HR, who don't know anything about tech hiring, so they'll just guess. This will result in a broad, inaccurate, or crappy range. Th…

Where does Radford get their salaries from? Is it crowdsourced like Glassdoor, or do they survey employers or employees?

Re: New York employers must include pay rates in job ads under new state law

#204

Post by altdataseller »

sdfghswe wrote: post #100

For a European person, I wonder if our fellow Americans would bother helping understand the rationale of such laws...?

There's a similar salary transparency law heading to the EU in a few years too. https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/pay-transparency...

Re: New York employers must include pay rates in job ads under new state law

#205

Post by nfriedly »

magicalhippo wrote: post #73
nfriedly wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe Sweeden, Finland, and Norway each publish the income/tax returns of all citizens.

Except at least in Norway it's total taxable income, so it's after various adjustments. However for most people it should be representative and you should be able to get a good estimate of how much they're paid.

I think you're right. Edited for clarity.

Re: New York employers must include pay rates in job ads under new state law

#206

Post by dr-detroit »

altdataseller wrote: post #53
prepend wrote: post #27

I think it’s better than nothing, but ultimately not helpful for job seekers working to learn how much a position will pay them. I work in a very regulated organization where all pay rates are published with postings. [0] But the ranges are $20-40k for each grade and it’s hard to tell what you will end up being offered and accepted. I think it helps prevent some mismatches of people confusing $20k and $200k positions…

I have asked some HR people this question about ranges, and most of them tell me they expect to pay the midpoint of the range. That is, if you meet the qualifications, they’ll offer you the midpoint. However if you blow them away or got some competing offers, they will offer you the high end. And if you got very little experience, the low end. That’s the rule of thumb. It doesn’t matter if the range is as wide as 80k…

[dead]

Re: New York employers must include pay rates in job ads under new state law

#207

Post by grecy »

altdataseller wrote: post #193
grecy wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A recent hiring posting here from a YCombinator backed company had salary ranges of $10,000-$1,000,000. Extremely helpful. /s

Why are you looking at the outliers? So by your logic, if a few companies have useless ranges, it makes the whole thing useless? How about job postings with relatively decent ranges like this backend engineer role in OpenAI: https://openai.com/careers/backend-engineer-evals-understand... with a range of $245,000 – $310,000?

You're right, I shouldn't let a few "bad apples" ruin the whole batch.

It would be great if the law could say something like "range must be +/- %25 of the target salary" (Obviously that's very difficult...)

Re: New York employers must include pay rates in job ads under new state law

#208

Post by the_gipsy »

jabradoodle wrote: post #197
the_gipsy wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, however companies are actively being fined for those. It's just that there is a huge amount of websites and not enough resources to prosecute them all at once. https://www.enforcementtracker.com/

Hopefully, haven't seen a difference as and end user. Do you know which of those fines are due to non compliant cookie banners? Had a quick look but I'm not well up enough on GDPR to figure out which fines are for violating which parts of GDPR.

No idea, but IIRC some are. The text is legalese so hard to make out exactly. Then also it's per country, even more complicated. Filing a case also is per country.

Re: New York employers must include pay rates in job ads under new state law

#209

Post by prepend »

altdataseller wrote: post #53
prepend wrote: post #27

I think it’s better than nothing, but ultimately not helpful for job seekers working to learn how much a position will pay them. I work in a very regulated organization where all pay rates are published with postings. [0] But the ranges are $20-40k for each grade and it’s hard to tell what you will end up being offered and accepted. I think it helps prevent some mismatches of people confusing $20k and $200k positions…

I have asked some HR people this question about ranges, and most of them tell me they expect to pay the midpoint of the range. That is, if you meet the qualifications, they’ll offer you the midpoint. However if you blow them away or got some competing offers, they will offer you the high end. And if you got very little experience, the low end. That’s the rule of thumb. It doesn’t matter if the range is as wide as 80k…

> just assume the midpoint is the starting offer

This is reasonable and is what I thought as well. But I worked for a firm where senior manager band was $120-350k. Most senior managers came in at $120-150 and would climb through years with the firm. If a new hire at the senior manager rate asked for $225-250 as a midpoint it would kill their negotiation and likely cost them their offer.

Re: New York employers must include pay rates in job ads under new state law

#210

Post by Eumenes »

altdataseller wrote: post #203
Eumenes wrote: post #10

Companies generally use third party compensation benchmark tools like Radford, which are total garbage. They base comp off title, and these tools are stuck in the stone age (think 'programmer analyst' as a SWE). When recruiting and/or engineering decide to post a job, they need to consult HR, who don't know anything about tech hiring, so they'll just guess. This will result in a broad, inaccurate, or crappy range. Th…

Where does Radford get their salaries from? Is it crowdsourced like Glassdoor, or do they survey employers or employees?

They survey employers, and according to their website: 20+ million employees at 6,700+ companies
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