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New York employers must include pay rates in job ads under new state law

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Re: New York employers must include pay rates in job ads under new state law

#181

Post by freejazz »

grecy wrote: post #168
habosa wrote: post #154

There's a lot of skepticism in this thread but I will just say that the other laws like this have had a huge positive effect on tech job searching in my opinion. Looking casually at jobs lately I would say that 80% of them have posted salary ranges. This has been enormously helpful in a) helping me avoid jobs with inflated titles but low pay and b) attracting me to jobs I might not otherwise consider because of very…

A recent hiring posting here from a YCombinator backed company had salary ranges of $10,000-$1,000,000. Extremely helpful. /s

They are likely in violation of the law, unless they genuinely, in good faith, believed that the role could just as easily been satisfied at $10k or $1m.

Re: New York employers must include pay rates in job ads under new state law

#182

Post by ZoomerCretin »

throwaway2203 wrote: post #166
habosa wrote: post #154

There's a lot of skepticism in this thread but I will just say that the other laws like this have had a huge positive effect on tech job searching in my opinion. Looking casually at jobs lately I would say that 80% of them have posted salary ranges. This has been enormously helpful in a) helping me avoid jobs with inflated titles but low pay and b) attracting me to jobs I might not otherwise consider because of very…

Sometimes, sure, but more often than not, I see salary range: 80k-180k depending on experience. Not very useful, that.

This law wasn't written to help highly paid SWEs get an extra $10k/year. It's written for lower-wage workers who can't get multiple offers and need to avoid entering long hiring pipelines for jobs that don't pay enough to cover rent.

Re: New York employers must include pay rates in job ads under new state law

#183

Post by fatfingerd »

Someone1234 wrote: post #171
throwaway2203 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes, sure, but more often than not, I see salary range: 80k-180k depending on experience. Not very useful, that.

True, but that is also telling you something useful about the company. I'm not defending it, I'm pointing out, that when a company tells you this is how they want to be seen by potentially new recruits then listen to them. It is a red flag for one of two reasons: - It is intentionally misleading (i.e. top of range is pure fiction). - Upward mobility is so terrible, that they comingle multiple different tiers of exper…

There are companies that actually can hire in this fashion, Google was and then perhaps pretended to be such a company.

One could break it up into separate jobs for the different levels but that's also misleading if you are considering 3 PhD experts and 2 mid-level or 7 juniors and 3 seniors, etc.

In theory its not all that bad when such a post is true, in that it means an individual contributor role might be higher than anywhere else in the industry.

Re: New York employers must include pay rates in job ads under new state law

#184

Post by throwaway2203 »

logicalmonster wrote: post #176
ehutch79 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that's super helpful. You know to avoid that job. Likely the requirements listed will be inaccurate as well.

> Likely the requirements listed will be inaccurate as well. Where are the requirements actually accurate? For what it's worth, the actual written requirements for many tech jobs are very questionable. In many cases, there's a big disconnect between the people writing the job ads and the people who actually communicate what they want. And out of sheer laziness or lack of knowledge, there are plenty of recruiters that…

That's fair... my first job was putting out listings with DHTML well into the 2010s because no one told HR to update the job descriptions.

Re: New York employers must include pay rates in job ads under new state law

#185

Post by sdfghswe »

ZoomerCretin wrote: post #170
sdfghswe wrote: post #100

For a European person, I wonder if our fellow Americans would bother helping understand the rationale of such laws...?

Our labor market is completely different. There is no loyalty between employee and employer anymore, so job switching is far more frequent here. The hiring culture is similarly bonkers: you have to apply to dozens or hundreds of jobs to get a callback, even when unemployment is low and employers are whining to anyone who will listen that it's hard to find workers, even for low-wage restaurant and retail positions. Em…

Ok thank you for this.

Re: New York employers must include pay rates in job ads under new state law

#186

Post by lesuorac »

sdfghswe wrote: post #159
lesuorac wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Typically the highest paid labourers are all people with relatively transparent salaries. - CEOs - Athletes Also things with salary transparency (i.e. Unions / Guilds) results in hirer wages for their members compared to similar workers without the things. It's also in line between with the basic principals of capitalism. The basic supply-demand graph assumes perfect information which is obviously not true when a job…

Ok so the rationale for such laws is to help employees get paid more?

I'm not sure it should be phrased that way. The rationale for such laws is to ensure an efficient allocation of labor. An expected side-effect of efficient allocation is higher wages as employees take the best paying job they're suited for but it's not like the point of the law is to make McDonalds pay 25$/h for a fryer.

> [1] The legislation underscores New York's commitment to addressing wage disparities and promoting transparency in compensation practices across the state. It ensures that employees have access to vital compensation information, and empowering them to make informed decisions about their careers.

[1]: https://dol.ny.gov/pay-transparency

Re: New York employers must include pay rates in job ads under new state law

#187

Post by [deleted] »

throwaway2203 wrote: post #166
habosa wrote: post #154

There's a lot of skepticism in this thread but I will just say that the other laws like this have had a huge positive effect on tech job searching in my opinion. Looking casually at jobs lately I would say that 80% of them have posted salary ranges. This has been enormously helpful in a) helping me avoid jobs with inflated titles but low pay and b) attracting me to jobs I might not otherwise consider because of very…

Sometimes, sure, but more often than not, I see salary range: 80k-180k depending on experience. Not very useful, that.

[deleted]

Re: New York employers must include pay rates in job ads under new state law

#188

Post by altdataseller »

HumblyTossed wrote: post #115
shortrounddev2 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In your original comment > Also, it only forces companies to list the base salary, but especially in tech, that's just a portion of one's total comp. "Total compensation" is, to me, a way to inflate one's own value. 1. In companies with no market for stock options (privately owned, startups, companies that are just absolutely worthless), equity is hypothetical money which may never be worth anything. I worked for a c…

> 2. Health insurance is something I expect to be there, regardless of the monetary value. I hear what you're saying, but man, I really wish employers would be banned from offering healthcare benefits. They have zero business offering healthcare benefits.

Why? Isn't someone paying 70%+ and me paying 30% of my healthcare premiums better than me paying 100%?

Re: New York employers must include pay rates in job ads under new state law

#189

Post by altdataseller »

logicalmonster wrote: post #169
donohoe wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree with your second point, but lets say you are right: the benefits of having a "salary ceiling" to me still outweigh any down-sides. I would argue that in many roles it gives a betters sense of what is on the table and allows folks to aim for higher than they might have. No legislation is perfect, but this a vast improvement over the current situation.

> a vast improvement over the current situation. Personally speaking, this only seems to be a very marginal improvement over the current situation if you consider the impact of legislation in a vacuum and magically wish away any possible unintended consequences. Does your analysis consider that at least some employers will not want to deal with employees affected by this? You might wish that this wasn't a thing, but…

That's not going to happen. California and now NY all require salary transparency. What's going to happen is the opposite. More and more states that don't have these laws, especially neighboring ones (like NJ, Connecticut) are going to disclose their salaries because they're competing with companies from those states that are being transparent, and attracting more candidates because of that transparency.

They're all going to surrender to what the market is asking of them. Salary transparency is quickly becoming table stakes

Re: New York employers must include pay rates in job ads under new state law

#190

Post by lesuorac »

matwood wrote: post #144
lesuorac wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean it's a corporate decision to have all the work be hidden. There's few laws requiring that your company operate on a dark web but they all choose to. I think if a pro sports team could figure out how to make it so the opposing team couldn't tell which one of their players is which they would choose to. Good luck running a shift in the MLB if you don't know if the batter is swinging lefty or righty. Also I think…

I didn't say it led to perfect decisions. And while it's a corporate decision, my point was that not all employees are ready to have their company operate like a pro sports team. Many people aren't ready to have the conversation that Sue is better than they are and is paid more.

I mean that's still true at the pro sports level.

Athletes leave teams all the time over disagreements over compensation. At least in the NHL it's not uncommon for a player to take the team to arbitration over their salary [1].

[1]: https://www.capfriendly.com/arbitration

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