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NASA’s Webb finds carbon source on surface of Jupiter’s moon Europa

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Re: NASA’s Webb finds carbon source on surface of Jupiter’s moon Europa

#251

Post by wddkcs »

Firaxus wrote: post #239
wddkcs wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your analogy is an extreme example of the principle I'm referencing. Taken to a similar extreme, your argument is that we should choose who lives and who dies, through the limitation of the resources required for growth.

They are just being realistic, their example isn’t extreme (though yours is). It is entirely possible with our current level of technology to adjust to the realities of the physical limitations in the world as we know it, without needing to resort to picking “who lives and dies”.

If those adjustments are to be made, they should be in increases in supply, not artificial constraints, that's my argument. Winning the lottery is imo more likely than finding a way to limit growth without draconian/totalitarian measures.

Re: NASA’s Webb finds carbon source on surface of Jupiter’s moon Europa

#252

Post by JshWright »

lloeki wrote: post #225
c54 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Metabolism converts sugars and oxygen to carbon dioxide and water. Fire has the same inputs and outputs too! You can think of metabolism as releasing the same energy as fire but with more steps so our bodies can harness and use the energy via various other chemical reactions. Most of the water from metabolism is released in your breath. Water you pee is mostly water you ingested via drinking and eating.

> Most of the water from metabolism is released in your breath And the reason for that is that air is bad for heat exchange and transport, water is much better, and evaporates! While the body passively cools in air (either directly when air is colder or via sweat evaporation when air is too hot) most of the heat exchange happens actively via breathing, which is nice because it's easy and quick to adjust, just by brea…

The primary driver for your respiratory rate is the pH of your blood. For instance, metabolic disorders that result in a drop in blood pH will result in an increase in respiratory rate/depth (e.g. Kussmaul breathing). As far as I know (with a fairly deep anatomy and physiology background) there is no mechanism by which body temperature can directly influence respiratory rate. If your respiratory rate increased just to get rid of heat, you’d also be blowing off more carbon dioxide and would end up in a state of respiratory alkalosis.

As you mentioned, sweat is also evaporating water, and that is a much more effective way of dumping heat.

Re: NASA’s Webb finds carbon source on surface of Jupiter’s moon Europa

#253

Post by wddkcs »

Firaxus wrote: post #240
wddkcs wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arguing against optimism is arguing against the history of science. We have cures to diseases that were declared unavoidable divine judgements, we have achieved feats of engineering that would be unimaginable a century ago. I am not arguing for the deapoilation of the planet. We should preserve our resources as best we can. But future growth requires the usage of what resources we do have, in to achieve outcomes and…

Technological advances are nice, but you can’t just assume they will happen. There’s no law or axiom that says we will discover something new, and certainly not on any time scale that we could plan against to avoid problems we predict today.

Based on past trends, it's much more likely we will discover new sources and methods of resource generation, than not. Diamonds were rare, now lab created, electricity was once sparse now ubiquitous. The trend is obvious

Re: NASA’s Webb finds carbon source on surface of Jupiter’s moon Europa

#254

Post by replwoacause »

bmitc wrote: post #193
uoaei wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> detracts from it I think you're assigning a moral quality to certain kinds of knowledge that isn't warranted.

I don't know what that means. The statement just wasn't useful and comes across as sassy and arrogant.

I agree with you. I took it exactly the same way and thought it was unnecessary.

Re: NASA’s Webb finds carbon source on surface of Jupiter’s moon Europa

#255

Post by keepamovin »

VerminOctopus1 wrote: post #247
keepamovin wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Skepticism is warranted, but there's no need for mockery. It only insults your humility in front of the great mystery. But to answer the question: I think they drilled down there, or sent a probe, but equally it could have been something told to them by an ET. But I can't recall the specifics.

Mockery is deserved in this case. Not every cartoonish and outlandish claim needs to be engaged with seriously.

You don't understand tho: you're not qualified to judge or disqualify it. That's why mockery is not only undeserved but inappropriate. That's why mockery here only humiliates you in front of the great mystery. You say you know the universe's possibilities? The universe would disagree with you, and you'd lose.

That's why you need openness, curiosity and skepticism to stand in front of these things. Those who mock this just look like arrogant fools. And you're not that, so that's why you need to respect yourself more, by not mocking these things that you're not qualified to disprove, but remain open in front of them, as possibly uncomfortable as that may be for whatever reason.

I hope you understand that. Also you need enough openness to understand that not everything outside of the common ken is equally (a very mocking description) "cartoonish and outlandish". A more profitable line of inquiry and discussion might be: What are your thoughts on the possibilities of there being an octopus-like species under the surface of Europa?

Re: NASA’s Webb finds carbon source on surface of Jupiter’s moon Europa

#256

Post by ramraj07 »

keepamovin wrote: post #255
VerminOctopus1 wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mockery is deserved in this case. Not every cartoonish and outlandish claim needs to be engaged with seriously.

You don't understand tho: you're not qualified to judge or disqualify it. That's why mockery is not only undeserved but inappropriate. That's why mockery here only humiliates you in front of the great mystery. You say you know the universe's possibilities? The universe would disagree with you, and you'd lose. That's why you need openness, curiosity and skepticism to stand in front of these things. Those who mock this…

Mockery is definitely acceptable when someone makes outlandish claims. You are totally justified in laughing at the spying spaghetti monster because its point is to make fun of the ludicrousness of some people’s beliefs.

What are my thoughts on an octopus like species under Europa? What are YOUR thoughts on lizard people living inside Earths core? If we want to acknowledge every fantastical claim with zero proof we will just have created another religion not pursue science.

Re: NASA’s Webb finds carbon source on surface of Jupiter’s moon Europa

#257

Post by Slava_Propanei »

jimkleiber wrote: post #186
bmitc wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every once in a while, I get reminded that people don’t necessarily have a scientific background. This isn't necessary for your point and detracts from an otherwise useful clarification.

I find it helpful to remember. When covid was starting to spread I worried a lot about potential exponential growth and was confused why a lot of others didn't seem so worried. While there may be many reasons, one that came to mind is that they may not have learned as much about exponential growth as I had in electrical and computer engineering and in working with startups. So it helped me to remember not everyone ha…

[dead]

Re: NASA’s Webb finds carbon source on surface of Jupiter’s moon Europa

#258

Post by rpwverheij »

jychang wrote: post #108
dmix wrote: post #87

> a fascinating world with a salty, subsurface ocean of liquid water—possibly twice as much as in all of Earth’s oceans combined. If we brought water back a container of water from Europa would this be the largest amount of new water entering the earth since planets struck it billions of years ago? I briefly googled it (I dont know much about this stuff tbh): > The water on our Earth today is the same water that’s be…

Every once in a while, I get reminded that people don’t necessarily have a scientific background. 1. Water molecules are not indivisible, of course. Many biological processes will rip apart hydrogen and oxygen, or combine them back together, and have been doing so for billions of years. Industrial processes do the same. So there’s plenty of “new water” from oxygen in the air, etc. 2. New water/oxygen/hydrogen land on…

> 2. New water/oxygen/hydrogen land on earth fairly regularly due to comets, which are usually slushy balls of ice.

This + the fact that we've seen microbes come back to life after being frozen in polar ice for millions of years always seems like the most obvious explanation for the origins of cellular life on earth to me.

In other words, what's the chance that the immense complexity of cells did evolve from a molecular soup here on earth VS the chance that it formed somewhere in the universe and found its way here (and many other places)

Re: NASA’s Webb finds carbon source on surface of Jupiter’s moon Europa

#259

Post by developer93 »

labster wrote: post #220
alex_young wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The famous glass of Theseus’ water eh? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

Is the Glass of Theseus half-full or half-empty?

Twice as big as it needs to be

Re: NASA’s Webb finds carbon source on surface of Jupiter’s moon Europa

#260

Post by developer93 »

jcims wrote: post #211
spartanatreyu wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sticking with just the Jovian moons, both Ganymede and Callisto are thought to have subsurface oceans too. Ganymede's oceans might be the largest in the entire Solar System. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganymede_(moon)#Subsurface_oce... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callisto_(moon)#Internal_struc...

800km deep. Oof. Seems like an ocean world could develop intelligence but technology would be quite difficult.

Our technology would be quite difficult, we might not even be able imagine what form an alien race's might take.
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