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U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

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Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#161

Post by anonymousDan »

mrbadger wrote: post #128

What's overlooked by many commenting on this is that cooperation with UK science will not revert to pre-Brexit levels. EU scientists do not have freedom of movement to the UK, nor do their families and any dependents. The bureaucratic obstacles to movement are considerable and there are no signs that this is about to change. UK scientists are still applying for jobs abroad in droves. Irish universities receive a grea…

Regarding your last point, is that from your own experience or can you point to some online resource. I ask as an Irish academic working in the UK who would potentially like to return home at some point!

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#162

Post by a_humean »

FiniteField wrote: post #152
a_humean wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except the leave campaigns lied and/or mislead about the consequnces of leaving or their own intentions for the exit negotiations and post-brexit policies for everything from single market access, fishing rights, to net immigration reductions.

It sounds like most of what you've listed, especially immigration reductions, are in the general sense things that the government now has the power to change, it just chooses not to. I'd put complaints about post-brexit policies at the government's feet rather than the leave campaign. That's not to say that prominent leave campaigners didn't mislead people with certain statements, but I also remember the Cameron-Osbo…

Sorry, I just assumed that if the leaders of the main leave campaign were to shortly become the government then they might share some responsibility. Apparently Johnson, Gove, Cummings and Sunak have no responsibilities for the things said and done for their cause in 2016. My bad.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#163

Post by logifail »

bemusedthrow75 wrote: post #140
gadders wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation needed.

See my other reply about Turkey being "set to join" the EU. Turkey has never been "set to join" the EU. They'd like to join, sure. There are significant criteria they would need to fill to join, and everyone knows they won't do it any time soon; they were going backwards on some at the time of the campaign and are arguably further back eight years on. If Turkey met all the criteria they'd be a perfectly viable member…

> There are significant criteria they would need to fill to join, and everyone knows they won't do it any time soon; they were going backwards on some at the time of the campaign and are arguably further back eight years on.

https://neighbourhood-enlargement.ec.europa.eu/enlargement-p...

"On 13 December 1999 the Helsinki European Council adopted the Commission proposal to grant Turkey the status of an applicant for EU membership."

Coming up on 24 years ... and counting. Great job, everyone involved.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#164

Post by tgv »

toyg wrote: post #154
gadders wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only that was all that the EU was or intended to become.

Free trade without substantial political union is useless. Look at the Commonwealth for an example: broken, decaying, unpopular, a walking zombie of an institution.

The Commonwealth has a rather different history; I don't think it is a good analogy for the EU.

Substantial political union isn't required per se, just enough common interest. That at least was the original thought behind the predecessor of the EU, and it seems to have worked through sharing economic interests.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#165

Post by vain »

FiniteField wrote: post #144
AlexandrB wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The claim that Brexit would redirect 350m/week to the NHS was a particularly egregious example. https://archive.ph/D2Yq4

Did that not happen? [0] shows an increase of £47bn on the department of health and social care from 2019-2020 and 2020-2021. That's £900m/week. If you compare to post-covid years then it's more like an increase of £28b or £540m/week. From the article linked in your comment, it seems to make a overly large "smoking gun" out of the fact that a referendum campaign website changed their website to reflect the fact that…

Nope. The 350 million was supposed to be from money saved from not being in the EU.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#166

Post by blibble »

rwmj wrote: post #89
blibble wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

staying associated with horizon was part of the brexit agreement Boris signed the EU delayed implementation in order to use horizon as a stick to apply political pressure in an unrelated area (as it continues to do with switzerland)

Groupings of countries have great leverage over single countries, who knew!

in this case: as a result of the conflict the UK received a better deal on the clawback terms and achieved exactly what it wanted on the NI border (which the EU had formerly said was impossible)

so I'm not sure that reality reflects your point

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#167

Post by tgv »

FiniteField wrote: post #115
pjc50 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> parliament with many degrees of democratic separation from the electorate The country with the entirely unelected unremovable upper house has no business complaining about this.

The house of lords had major reform at the start of Labour's last stint in government to remove hereditary peers. It's not impossible to go further, in fact I'd put it at about the same likelihood as reforming the EU structure in the medium to long term. Besides, short of violent revolution there's nothing the UK population can immediately do about the HoL. The Brexit vote was something that the people could directly…

> actually make the laws

But only in a few domains, and they always require approval. From wiki: "Most legislation needs to be proposed by the European Commission and approved by the Council of the European Union and European Parliament to become law." The former consists of the national governments, which usually has a popular mandate, the latter is chosen directly.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#169

Post by Retric »

FiniteField wrote: post #144
AlexandrB wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The claim that Brexit would redirect 350m/week to the NHS was a particularly egregious example. https://archive.ph/D2Yq4

Did that not happen? [0] shows an increase of £47bn on the department of health and social care from 2019-2020 and 2020-2021. That's £900m/week. If you compare to post-covid years then it's more like an increase of £28b or £540m/week. From the article linked in your comment, it seems to make a overly large "smoking gun" out of the fact that a referendum campaign website changed their website to reflect the fact that…

No it didn’t, inflation alone is a poor adjustment for health spending when the populations keeps increasing. Thus explaining the net increase every year from 2010 to 2019.

There’s many ways to calculate what that expenditure should be but looking at the most recent pre Brexit numbers, 2018 was 150.7B, 2019 was 158.3B. Extrapolate that trend and 2023 would be 7.6 * 4 + 158.3B ~= 188.7, where the real number is projected at 186.7B.

PS: That link only specifies 2020 and 2021 as seeing COVID specific spending but the UK health system was still being slammed in 2022 while also trying to catch up on delayed procedures etc. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#170

Post by vain »

Iwan-Zotow wrote: post #158
eptcyka wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that foreign actors had a far greater influence than most other elections in British history - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_20...

"and remains unproven"

Probably because the then PM decided to not follow the recommendations of the Russia report and order an investigation. Would have been good to know either way.
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