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U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

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Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#121

Post by FiniteField »

rob74 wrote: post #107
jll29 wrote: post #105

Welcome back, UK! (The UK should not demand special conditions after causing cost and temporary instability by leaving the EU.)

The UK has always demanded (and received) special conditions, not just on Horizon, but on lots of other things too, even while it was still in the EU.

Which was entirely fair considering that extremely significant, costly parts of the EU structure and policies are essentially special conditions to other countries. The Common Agricultural Policy was/is basically a free fund of N billion EUR/year to France.

It all goes back to the fact that the entire EU has grown out of what was ultimately a deal between France and Germany, which has always left the UK out as the other one of Europe's big 3 countries. In fact France even blocked the UK from joining at all in the first place.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#122

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

swores wrote: post #119
nvm0n2 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or phrased another way, by listening to whoever spoke better? A key remainer argument was of the form, "we have to remain in the EU to be a part of pooled research (and other such schemes)" and the counter-argument was "no, collaboration makes sense regardless and better deals can eventually be reached". So the Leavers were right about that in the end. Horizon isn't important compared to constitutional issues, but th…

Is there an example area where the UK actually is in a better situation thanks to Brexit, or has agreed a deal with anyone that's better than the previous situation? Taking this Horizon story as an example, the fact that we've rejoined shows that EU membership isn't necessary for it, but it still has "years out of the deal" as a negative for Brexit and I don't think any improvement to count as a positive?

I mean the big selling point is flexibility in regulation. The trouble is that using that flexibility would be bad for exporters so it's pretty tricky to use effectively.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#123

Post by badcppdev »

robertlagrant wrote: post #72
neel_k wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's translate your comment from scientific research to driving: > If driving on the road suddenly makes car trips possible, then I'd say that the road is indeed designed to make things more difficult for those not driving on the road. This is obviously silly, because the road makes car travel easier, not harder. Schemes like Horizon Europe make scientific research easier in similar ways. For funding agencies to giv…

> Schemes like Horizon Europe make scientific research easier in similar ways. Roads allow any vehicle anyone built to work on them. Having EU-specific roads that cars built in the EU can easily drive on, while other cars require significant modification, would be a better analogy.

Roads only help people who are in that location. The EU-specific roads (or programs) only help people driving (or researching) in the EU (and affiliated countries).

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#124

Post by gadders »

swores wrote: post #117
FiniteField wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This whole brexit thing happened by ignoring researchers and listening to whoever spoke louder :) When it goes the way someone wants they call that "democracy" ;)

Democracy isn't a magical word that automatically makes every decision made democratically good, nor does it stop being democracy if people are lied to and tricked into voting against their own interests.

You could say that about any election, ever. The Brexit Referendum was no more or less honest than any general election.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#125

Post by RandomLensman »

fundatus wrote: post #114
RandomLensman wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No disagreement on rules, but I don't see that as particular exclusionary in the sense that whenever people cooperate they do that under some set of rules anyway. EU might have geopolitical aims, but not much capability, so I see Horizon as not very strong in that area, if at all.

> EU might have geopolitical aims, but not much capability, so I see Horizon as not very strong in that area, if at all. The EU has quite some capacity to project power worldwide. Especially when it comes to trade and regulation. Surely not like the US or China, since it doesn't have it's own military. But much more than any of it's member states alone or other mid-sized countries like the UK.

If you use a somewhat wider view on geopolitics that includes regulations, yes, agreed.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#126

Post by mrbadger »

walthamstow wrote: post #51
O_nlogn wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: I voted to remain, but this is a great example of misleading/fear mongering by the remain campaign. They very vocally claimed that all the "good bits" of the EU cooperation would be permanently ended by leaving the Union. As evidenced by this news and others, that is untrue. There is clearly room for close cooperation in many areas without surrendering sovereign control over your nation.

Except we did surrender sovereign control over our country. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/trading-and-moving-goods-in-and-... > Before you move goods between Northern Ireland and non-EU countries (including Great Britain) We started with borderless free trade from Iceland to Greece and we ended up with customs guidance that pretends that GB and NI are in different countries. The Brexit Trilemma is alive and well today.

Nonsense. There is no pretense that GB and NI are in different countries. They are in different trade zones.

As for "our" country, here's your reminder that all of Ireland was coerced into the UK by colonisation and oppression and that NI is a contingent part of the UK not an integral part of it.

A majority of its people voted against Brexit; a majority favour the NI protocol and the Windsor agreement; and a majority will vote in due course to end the imperial gerrymander imposed at gunpoint on the Irish people (likely within 15 years, now that unionists are a minority in decline).

It was the UK govt and parliament's decision to separate NI so that GB could go "buccaneering". As for "surrendering" the English will get over it, just like they got over losing most of Ireland and the rest of the empire.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#127

Post by badcppdev »

FiniteField wrote: post #102
bowsamic wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your attitude is strange. If you break a friendship in a painful way, you don't at the same time think "oh but I can surely resume borrowing his record collection in the future". > There is clearly room for close cooperation in many areas without surrendering sovereign control over your nation. Are you sure you voted remain? This is basically the prototypical pro-leave argument.

>If you break a friendship in a painful way Given the argument for undoing Brexit is that the EU is "just a trade agreement" and not worthy of any discussions on democracy and sovereignty, I'm always surprised that so many Europeans, even high-level politicians, seem to have taken the decision to leave in such an incredibly personal way. Even the leave campaign itself was squarely against the EU as an institution, no…

'Given the argument for undoing Brexit is that the EU is "just a trade agreement"'

The mistake I see here is that you are saying "The argument" and "is" implying that there is a singular argument/factor/opinion in play. This kind of simplification is not the way forward.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#128

Post by mrbadger »

What's overlooked by many commenting on this is that cooperation with UK science will not revert to pre-Brexit levels.

EU scientists do not have freedom of movement to the UK, nor do their families and any dependents. The bureaucratic obstacles to movement are considerable and there are no signs that this is about to change.

UK scientists are still applying for jobs abroad in droves. Irish universities receive a great many applications from the UK for every job advertised (UK scientists can move to Ireland freely because of the Common Travel Area).

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#129

Post by a_humean »

gadders wrote: post #124
swores wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy isn't a magical word that automatically makes every decision made democratically good, nor does it stop being democracy if people are lied to and tricked into voting against their own interests.

You could say that about any election, ever. The Brexit Referendum was no more or less honest than any general election.

Except the leave campaigns lied and/or mislead about the consequnces of leaving or their own intentions for the exit negotiations and post-brexit policies for everything from single market access, fishing rights, to net immigration reductions.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#130

Post by joshvm »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #39
phh wrote: post #14

FWIW, I don't have numbers, but Horizon Europe is both a research funding scheme and an industry innovation funding scheme. https://research-and-innovation.ec.europa.eu/funding/funding... says "This is 70% of the budget earmarked for SMEs." It has both direct research grants (ERC grants), and funds for big consortium projects, where most of the money goes to big companies, with some money also going to SMEs and resea…

The UK government could be funding SMEs directly. The issue, I think, is indeed research institutions, which could also be directly funded, but would still be excluded from most EU programs if not part of the scheme.

The UK does fund SMEs, that's the Innovate UK program. It's a good pot for domestic money and relatively easy to get (or used to be, you'd see the same companies at every conference). It has money for solo industry and industry/university projects. It's under the same umbrella (UKRI) that also funds academic research (STFC, EPSRC, AHRC, etc).

For some comprison with Switzerland where I currently live, and who also has a rocky relationship with the EU - we have InnoSuisse which every startup seems to get money from, and SNSF which is the massively oversubscribed science funding agency.

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