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U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

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Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#151

Post by [deleted] »

mrbadger wrote: post #126
walthamstow wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except we did surrender sovereign control over our country. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/trading-and-moving-goods-in-and-... > Before you move goods between Northern Ireland and non-EU countries (including Great Britain) We started with borderless free trade from Iceland to Greece and we ended up with customs guidance that pretends that GB and NI are in different countries. The Brexit Trilemma is alive and well today.

Nonsense. There is no pretense that GB and NI are in different countries. They are in different trade zones. As for "our" country, here's your reminder that all of Ireland was coerced into the UK by colonisation and oppression and that NI is a contingent part of the UK not an integral part of it. A majority of its people voted against Brexit; a majority favour the NI protocol and the Windsor agreement; and a majority…

[deleted]

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#152

Post by FiniteField »

a_humean wrote: post #129
gadders wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could say that about any election, ever. The Brexit Referendum was no more or less honest than any general election.

Except the leave campaigns lied and/or mislead about the consequnces of leaving or their own intentions for the exit negotiations and post-brexit policies for everything from single market access, fishing rights, to net immigration reductions.

It sounds like most of what you've listed, especially immigration reductions, are in the general sense things that the government now has the power to change, it just chooses not to. I'd put complaints about post-brexit policies at the government's feet rather than the leave campaign. That's not to say that prominent leave campaigners didn't mislead people with certain statements, but I also remember the Cameron-Osborne remain campaign saying that merely voting to leave would instantly plunge the country into a huge recession. People like Nick Clegg also dismissed and scoffed at (IMO) legitimate concerns from the leave side, like saying that the prospect of an EU army was a conspiracy theory, when in fact there have since been lots of higher-ups in the EU pushing for this.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#153

Post by bemusedthrow75 »

gadders wrote: post #149
bemusedthrow75 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Brexit Referendum was no more or less honest than any general election. Sorry , no. It was profoundly* dishonest. I have a leaflet that was dropped through my door talking about Turkey joining the EU as if it was something imminent and guaranteed (it is neither). It featured a map that prominently suggested this was a gateway to all things nefarious by showing Turkey as a coloured region without a label, surrou…

"Turkey is negotiating its accession to the European Union (EU) as a member state, following its application to become a full member of the European Economic Community (EEC), the predecessor of the EU, on 14 April 1987.[1]" It's officially classed as a candidate. That doesn't seem consistent with "Never joining" unless the EU knowingly lied to Turkey. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Turkey_to_the_Eur...

Did I say "never joining"?

I said it was not imminent (it isn't) or guaranteed (and it isn't).

Nobody lied to Turkey. They know there are economic, political, social etc. targets that they have to meet before they progress to EU membership.

I've been a candidate for lots of things I didn't get. Haven't you?

They first applied in 1987, 29 years before the Brexit vote. It has been more than seven years since that vote.

The very Wikipedia page you're pointing at shows how badly it is going for Turkey after we left. Basically, the process is as close to ended for good as it can be. Turkey is less likely to succeed in joining the EU than the UK is to rejoin.

And everyone knew how serious those problems were, particularly regarding human rights, and the direction of travel.

The Leave campaign absolutely lied about Turkey's chances of joining, because only the spectre of Turkey being a member soon fit with the idea of Syrian refugees fleeing across the border into, thus, the EU, from their very current conflict.

It was never close to true.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#154

Post by toyg »

gadders wrote: post #106
gumballindie wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe we'll make a trade deal with countries in our geographical proximity, so we can trade without barriers. Perhaps even allow people to go there and work, and people from there to come here. Who knows what the future brings.

If only that was all that the EU was or intended to become.

Free trade without substantial political union is useless. Look at the Commonwealth for an example: broken, decaying, unpopular, a walking zombie of an institution.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#155

Post by a_humean »

gadders wrote: post #131
a_humean wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except the leave campaigns lied and/or mislead about the consequnces of leaving or their own intentions for the exit negotiations and post-brexit policies for everything from single market access, fishing rights, to net immigration reductions.

Citation needed.

Sorry, I don't need to provide citations for the non-stop BS peddled for years and years in UK politics or list all of the policy positions of the last 5 conservative governments we have enjoyed for the past 8 years.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#156

Post by funcDropShadow »

robertlagrant wrote: post #72
neel_k wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's translate your comment from scientific research to driving: > If driving on the road suddenly makes car trips possible, then I'd say that the road is indeed designed to make things more difficult for those not driving on the road. This is obviously silly, because the road makes car travel easier, not harder. Schemes like Horizon Europe make scientific research easier in similar ways. For funding agencies to giv…

> Schemes like Horizon Europe make scientific research easier in similar ways. Roads allow any vehicle anyone built to work on them. Having EU-specific roads that cars built in the EU can easily drive on, while other cars require significant modification, would be a better analogy.

If you want roads as metaphor. Here it is: Roads profit those who are based along the road. A road between cities A and B profits those living and doing business in A and B more than anybody else living in a third city which is not connected to the road. That is just a matter of fact not a deliberate design decision to exclude someone.

The Horizon research framework exists to make it easier to form research projects across a set of countries. Everybody from a thirdparty country is at a disadvantage. But that is not because they, somebody in Brussels, wants to exclude someone. It is because the thirdparty country didn't put in the work to align it's local rules to the rules of the treaty.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#157

Post by a_humean »

gadders wrote: post #149
bemusedthrow75 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Brexit Referendum was no more or less honest than any general election. Sorry , no. It was profoundly* dishonest. I have a leaflet that was dropped through my door talking about Turkey joining the EU as if it was something imminent and guaranteed (it is neither). It featured a map that prominently suggested this was a gateway to all things nefarious by showing Turkey as a coloured region without a label, surrou…

"Turkey is negotiating its accession to the European Union (EU) as a member state, following its application to become a full member of the European Economic Community (EEC), the predecessor of the EU, on 14 April 1987.[1]" It's officially classed as a candidate. That doesn't seem consistent with "Never joining" unless the EU knowingly lied to Turkey. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Turkey_to_the_Eur...

You have to be ignorant on this topic or a liar to say that Turkey is going to join the EU for the foreseeable future. I accept that you might be ignorant (no shame in that), but the people that created that campaign material were lying because they did know better.

Even back in 2015 it was pretty clear that Turkey was probably never going to join the EU - at least a generation off if ever. They have nominally been trying to join since the 1980s and its going nowhere in large part because of a lack of progress on Turkey's side and also signficant skepticism of further expansion on the EU side.

There is a lot of talk about Ukraine joining for instance, but its far from clear despite the expressed political will on both sides that it will ever happen for various reasons. These include the question of Ukraine meeting entry thresholds or EU members willing to absorb a member the size of Ukraine and the funding implications its entry would bring. Despite that, Ukraine is signficantly more likely to join than Turkey was in 2016.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#158

Post by Iwan-Zotow »

eptcyka wrote: post #134
gadders wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could say that about any election, ever. The Brexit Referendum was no more or less honest than any general election.

I believe that foreign actors had a far greater influence than most other elections in British history - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_20...

"and remains unproven"

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#159

Post by makingstuffs »

swores wrote: post #117
FiniteField wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This whole brexit thing happened by ignoring researchers and listening to whoever spoke louder :) When it goes the way someone wants they call that "democracy" ;)

Democracy isn't a magical word that automatically makes every decision made democratically good, nor does it stop being democracy if people are lied to and tricked into voting against their own interests.

Democracy is just a word. True democracy as people like to think of it does not exist.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#160

Post by layer8 »

cossray wrote: post #60
hashtag-til wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like a "union" of European countries, you mean? Any suggestions of how we could name it? Let's try to come up with a simple name and a 2 letters acronym so that it is simple for people to refer to it? /s

This sounds great. You mean something like the African Union and its 2 letter acronym, AU?

Great Union or United Union sounds good.
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