To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel • Hacker News Board

Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#151

Post by AirborneUnicorn » Tue, Sep 19, 2023, 12:28 AM UTC

hwillis wrote: post #121

echelon wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious as to whether manned ships will continue to prevail in the age of drones. Wire up a cheap boat with explosives and it can sink an expensive naval vessel. The Ukrainians are using this to massively great effect right now against the Russians. What if instead of building one new aircraft carrier, you build an autonomous submersible capable of launching drones with variable payloads? Or instead of a destroye…

> Wire up a cheap boat with explosives and it can sink an expensive naval vessel. This has been pretty obvious since the Millennium Challenge 21 years ago, when they just called them suicide attacks. Nobody seems to have cared then and not much has changed. I think the issue is pretty tightly limited to boats/sea drones, though. If you're even a few feet under the surface then sonar can see you. If you're a few feet…

there is evidence of major navies investing in autonomous surface vehicles: https://www.usff.navy.mil/Press-Room/News-Stories/Article/35...

Obviously not combat vehicles but it’s not hard to imagine such a thing being reframed in a similar way.

Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#152

Post by dllthomas » Tue, Sep 19, 2023, 12:37 AM UTC

cpursley wrote: post #130

EliRivers wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Soviet-era high-quality STEM education The last batch of such manufacturing apprentices went through in the mid-eighties. They're just about all gone from the workplace.

Tell that to the US aerospace industry which is full of Russian and Soviet trained engineers (who are not in their 90s).

I would guess the nit being picked was "Soviet era" rather than whether there are Russian engineers trained since then.

Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#153

Post by appleiigs » Tue, Sep 19, 2023, 1:12 AM UTC

Tangurena2 wrote: post #100

appleiigs wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The U.S. doesn't have a centrally planned economy. Each business is free to do as it wishes... and if they wished to survive competitively, they moved their production offshore (helps avoid UAW strikes). Easy to know U.S. lost expertise, but tough question how do you get it back? Tariffs? A larger military-industrial complex? Even larger government?

Every large company is itself a "centrally planned economy". I worked for General Motors - it was much more like the Soviet Union than people want to admit. Every conglomerate I have worked for that had more than 10,000 workers was run like dictatorships.

Ok, so those company dictators are interested in national security instead of profits? The entire topic here is how to maintain or build skills within the U.S.

Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#154

Post by credit_guy » Tue, Sep 19, 2023, 1:16 AM UTC

pydry wrote: post #145

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia is still structured as an empire, though the fraction of ethnic Russians is relatively high, historically speaking. That, together with its large size, requires a large section of the economy be slaved to the security sector. Frankly, Russia as a Chinese suzerainty might be one of the more productive alignments for the global economy, even if it isn’t great for America.

For those interested in a more analytical approach, this article/youTube video explains how the geographical vulnerability of Russia's western borders has led to both its high degree of overall militarization as well as its extreme sensitivity over Ukraine in particular: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/12/05/caspian_r... ! Although it is usually ignored, geography is fundamental to understanding why nati…

> geographical vulnerability of Russia's western border

This is Russia's argument, but it is nonsense. Nobody would attack any Russian border, western or otherwise, because Russia has thousands of nuclear weapons. It's as simple as that.

Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#155

Post by smoyer » Tue, Sep 19, 2023, 1:22 AM UTC

1970-01-01 wrote: post #33

horeszko wrote: post #28

Makes me wonder how much manufacturing knowledge has been lost in the west, and how long it might take to rediscover it all. Does anyone know of any good sources on this?

It's the skills that are lost. The knowledge is safe in print.

We can't build the engines for the Saturn five rocket anymore though the engineering documents still exist. You need the documentation and skilled craftsman.

Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#156

Post by vGPU » Tue, Sep 19, 2023, 2:06 AM UTC

freefaler wrote: post #123

vGPU wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And a very corrupted government and no rule of law. Claim without evidence. Let’s throw in a bit of whataboutism- have you seen how improbably good pelosi’s stock market trades are? Almost like she’s insider trading . > Also declining population and worsening education. Population seems to be more or less in line with the rest of the world, and likely better once you factor for immigration. “In 2014 the Pearson/Eco…

I am Russian and I know what I'm talking about living in that place about corruption and business and institutions. Corruption data with sources: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/average-rating-of-corrupt... About demographics check these: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aging_of_Russia&u... About education: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/pisa-score-of-the-worst-a... Let's not cite "Bloomberg" as a g…

Your “ourwordindata” link shows a net improvement between the two data points.

The “demographic crisis” appears to be on par with, if not better than, what the vast majority of Asian and European countries are experiencing.

And are you seriously quoting “perceived corruption”?

That’s a subjective measure. It’s literally in the title.

Could you at least try instead of throwing random links that you probably haven’t even reviewed yourself? Because this is pathetic. I expect more rigorous research and effort from an HN reply.

Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#157

Post by mikewarot » Tue, Sep 19, 2023, 2:22 AM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #26

> designers, engineers and welders grapple with something the U.S. hasn’t done in decades: reliably shape hardened steel that is more than an inch thick into a curved, reinforced ship’s hull I don't understand. Aren't modern military ships armoured anymore?

At the end of WW2, the Japanese had developed, but not yet deployed, suicide airplanes with 2,900 Kg shaped charges built into them. If they were deployed, and managed to get close enough, it's possible it would have blown right through the 12" armor of an Iowa class battleship.

It was Mitsubishi Ki0167[2], according to Ryan Szimanski the curator of the Battleship New Jersey, in this video[1].

This marked the effective end of the concept of armor thick enough that it couldn't be breached, and the Battleship.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KlFxbF8hrs

[2] https://www.daveswarbirds.com/Nippon/aircraft/Ki-167.htm

Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#158

Post by defrost » Tue, Sep 19, 2023, 2:22 AM UTC

smoyer wrote: post #155

1970-01-01 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the skills that are lost. The knowledge is safe in print.

We can't build the engines for the Saturn five rocket anymore though the engineering documents still exist. You need the documentation and skilled craftsman.

If that's true ... then how were the engines ever built in the first place?

You know, back when they had neither the plans nor people that had built such large engines before?

Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#159

Post by genmud » Tue, Sep 19, 2023, 3:50 AM UTC

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #109

1970-01-01 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the skills that are lost. The knowledge is safe in print.

You can't even document computer code accurately. And neither can I. Gordon Ramsey can't document how to cook a steak and how to tell thats its done. 3 different cooks will read his instructions and will end up with 3 different steaks. The idea that a lifetime of steelworking experience can be foind in books, especially by people who aren't known for love of books, is pure folly. Skills are living. They live in flesh…

I call BS. Code and any process can be documented just fine.

> 3 different cooks will read his instructions and will end up with 3 different steaks

Either his instructions are shit, or the cooks are donkeys.

Sear steak at high heat, 1 minute, rotate steak 45 degrees, flip steak to sear back side for 1 minute, rotate steak 45 degrees. Move steak to indirect heat until internal temp probed at center of steak reaches 145F, remove steak and plate steak after resting for 4 minutes.

There. If you follow those instructions you can get a perfectly done steak every. single. time.

Shit is only subjective if you don’t have a repeatable way of measuring things.

You absolutely can learn steel working and foundry type of stuff from books, but you have to find ways of measuring what you are doing. E.G. heat to this temp, control cooling process by means of $X, $Y, $Z. Inspect crystal structure of coupon, X-ray for porosity.

It isn’t easy, but it can be done.

Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#160

Post by wrp » Tue, Sep 19, 2023, 4:33 AM UTC

0xDEF wrote: post #91

cpursley wrote: post #64

Everybody likes to dump on Russia here but their nuclear icebreakers are something to behold: https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2022/may/worlds-m... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKaVhXn49xY

It is actually a surprising that Russia is not the manufacturing capital of the world. They have super-cheap energy, Soviet-era high-quality STEM education, and 50 million cheap workers from Caucasus, Siberia, Far East Russia, and the Central Asian countries.

> It is actually a surprising that Russia is not the manufacturing capital of the world.

Why the USSR did not become a major industrial exporter has been the subject of some good historical studies. It's been a while, so I don't have any good references at hand, but I recall that the main problem was Soviet management policies. Companies had a very hard time implementing quality control, and the government was also reluctant to close obsolete plants, because their primary goal was to maintain full employment.