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To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

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Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#121
post #88
post #26

> designers, engineers and welders grapple with something the U.S. hasn’t done in decades: reliably shape hardened steel that is more than an inch thick into a curved, reinforced ship’s hull I don't understand. Aren't modern military ships armoured anymore?

I'm curious as to whether manned ships will continue to prevail in the age of drones. Wire up a cheap boat with explosives and it can sink an expensive naval vessel. The Ukrainians are using this to massively great effect right now against the Russians. What if instead of building one new aircraft carrier, you build an autonomous submersible capable of launching drones with variable payloads? Or instead of a destroye…

> Wire up a cheap boat with explosives and it can sink an expensive naval vessel.

This has been pretty obvious since the Millennium Challenge 21 years ago, when they just called them suicide attacks. Nobody seems to have cared then and not much has changed.

I think the issue is pretty tightly limited to boats/sea drones, though. If you're even a few feet under the surface then sonar can see you. If you're a few feet above the surface then radar gets you. Both options die a mile away.

I also think Russia is probably not very representative of the overall threat, too. I don't think their navy is running particularly better than their army. I don't know that other navies can do much besides trying to spot ships and blow them up with guns (do top-attack missiles work?) but whether or not they're good at it they'll definitely be much better than Russia. Until there's some sign that countries are actually investing in sea drones I don't think anything will be done, and I wouldn't be surprised if some kind of small top-attack rocket makes it a non-issue.

> autonomous submersible

autonomous and submersible don't go very well together. Radio contact underwater is terrible. It's not like drones fly themselves; we haven't figure out the whole autonomous thing.

> capable of launching drones with variable payloads?

Landing a plane on a ship is actually really hard and requires constant maintenance, even for VTOL. Even for helicopters. Smaller the ship, harder it is to land.

> build a drone ship that can launch missiles?

But like, why? Why not have people on it? Ships are not big because of the people on it. People can treat casualties, repel boarding, land on the ground etc. Ships are also constantly being maintained and repaired. Waves and salt are a real bitch.

If you make a ship without people it'll cost almost the same, be almost the same size, be very hard to repair and be much less capable.

Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#122
post #91

Everybody likes to dump on Russia here but their nuclear icebreakers are something to behold: https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2022/may/worlds-m... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKaVhXn49xY

It is actually a surprising that Russia is not the manufacturing capital of the world. They have super-cheap energy, Soviet-era high-quality STEM education, and 50 million cheap workers from Caucasus, Siberia, Far East Russia, and the Central Asian countries.

They don't really have the population for it. In fact, they've got an acute skilled labor shortage (and had one even before the war).

Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#123
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And a very corrupted government and no rule of law. China is also corrupted, but the level of corruption in Russia is on a different level. Also declining population and worsening education. There is a statistically significant correlation between the level of corruption and economic growth: https://documents.worldbank.org/en/publication/documents-rep... Putin has dismantled most of the check and balances in the syst…

> And a very corrupted government and no rule of law. Claim without evidence. Let’s throw in a bit of whataboutism- have you seen how improbably good pelosi’s stock market trades are? Almost like she’s insider trading . > Also declining population and worsening education. Population seems to be more or less in line with the rest of the world, and likely better once you factor for immigration. “In 2014 the Pearson/Eco…

I am Russian and I know what I'm talking about living in that place about corruption and business and institutions.

Corruption data with sources: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/average-rating-of-corrupt...

About demographics check these: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aging_of_Russia&u...

About education: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/pisa-score-of-the-worst-a...

Let's not cite "Bloomberg" as a good data source for this. It's not good enough.

Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#124
post #5

"This new idea could reduce steel’s carbon emissions by 90%" https://www.freethink.com/energy/decarbonizing-steel Why is steel necessary for ships? From "Plant-based epoxy enables recyclable carbon fiber" (2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30138954 : > And once it’s completed you have an insanely strong material that makes steel look weak and brittle. It’s reported to be as much as ten times stronger than st…

The problem with carbon fiber and epoxy composites. Once it cracks, you cannot repair it, easily. It relies on a continuous composite structure. You can't patch it because that patchwork joint will just be a weak spot. So you are talking about writing off tens of millions of dollars of a boat just because someone lost control and hit something too hard. Steel is infinitely repairable, cut out the damaged section and…

Steel - it doesn't lose strength when you bend it a little. Most other materials suffer fatigue and fail when you bend them repeatedly. This makes steel ideal for many things.

Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#125
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, the who would you suggest should be the world's police? The post-WWII world order is predicated on the agreement that the age of imperialism is over and that invasion by force to annex another country is illegitimate. It is obvious that all nations do not agree to this. E.g.: China on Tibet, Taiwan, 9-dashed line, etc., Russia in Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine. Those authoritarian states think it is perfectly fine to…

> OK, the who would you suggest should be the world’s police? > The post-WWII world order is predicated on the agreement that the age of imperialism is over and that invasion by force to annex another country is illegitimate. If that was true, it would be inconsistent with any one nation or narrow relatively fixed set of nations being the world’s police, as that would indicate that the age of imperialism was not over…

>>aspirations which people at the end of WWII had for the postwar international order were never realized.

Yes, the UN failed to live up to that aspiration.

Of course some kind of Shangra-La where there is no conflict and no authoritarians trying to take over would be fantastic. The problem is that it is just that - a fantasy. We must deal with the reality of the world.

This is in no small part to the failure of including as permanent members on the Security Council the authoritarian states of USSR and China, which have done little but abuse the system attempting to game it for their own interests.

So, yes, we are down to a choice. Either:

1) The nations attempting (however imperfectly) to let their people live self-determining lives, and elect self-determining governments step up and enforce that aspirational world order as best they can.

or

2) Abandon attempts at suppressing imperialism and maintainting order, and allow again states to engage in war of all against all.

Suggesting that #1 is the same as imperialism, or as #2, is absurd.

We can seen where the policing has broken down, because the states trying to maintain democracy and the Post-WWII world order have tried appeasement or failed to police. It is endless war crimes, cities reduced to rubble, internment "reeducation" camps for millions.

So, if you are going to throw accusations that the US, UK, FR, NATO, attempting to maintain whatever peaceful world order is some kind of problem or is illegitimate, you need to come up with a better and viable solution.

What is your suggestion?

Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia is still structured as an empire, though the fraction of ethnic Russians is relatively high, historically speaking. That, together with its large size, requires a large section of the economy be slaved to the security sector. Frankly, Russia as a Chinese suzerainty might be one of the more productive alignments for the global economy, even if it isn’t great for America.

I knew I'd be able to bait you out of hiding with my comment. The handful of resident anti-Russian zealots on here are so predicable. I mean goodness, can we just admire a cool boat for a second?

> bait you out of hiding with my comment

What? With this [1] comment? Look at the time stamps. (Do we know each other?)

> Don't you have anything at all nice to say about them?

About the current Russian state? No. It’s pathetic and broken, and I don’t see a way to fix it other than devolving it—functionally, not legally—to China.

About Russia as a culture, people and nation? Of course. Russian literature from the classics (Turgenev) to mid-century (Bulgakov) and modern, together with Soviet films, are among my favourite genres. I love the food. I adore the operas and music. And Russians’ sense of wit and humour is among the sharpest and funniest in the world. As a species also we’re eternally in the Soviet Union’s debt for their aerospace and medical advances, to say nothing of dealing the death blow to the Nazis at Leningrad.

Much of my bitterness towards Moscow stems from knowledge of the potential of Russia’s people that is being squandered, delayed or permanently destroyed, in service of delusions.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37562330

Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#127

"This new idea could reduce steel’s carbon emissions by 90%" https://www.freethink.com/energy/decarbonizing-steel Why is steel necessary for ships? From "Plant-based epoxy enables recyclable carbon fiber" (2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30138954 : > And once it’s completed you have an insanely strong material that makes steel look weak and brittle. It’s reported to be as much as ten times stronger than st…

A boat you could carry couldn’t break ice.

+1. How do mass density of the craft and thrust limit the energy necessary to solve problem?

Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#128
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And a very corrupted government and no rule of law. Claim without evidence. Let’s throw in a bit of whataboutism- have you seen how improbably good pelosi’s stock market trades are? Almost like she’s insider trading . > Also declining population and worsening education. Population seems to be more or less in line with the rest of the world, and likely better once you factor for immigration. “In 2014 the Pearson/Eco…

I am Russian and I know what I'm talking about living in that place about corruption and business and institutions. Corruption data with sources: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/average-rating-of-corrupt... About demographics check these: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aging_of_Russia&u... About education: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/pisa-score-of-the-worst-a... Let's not cite "Bloomberg" as a g…

To highlight, Russia’s future changed dramatically after 2014. You start to see this in ca. 2016 statistics. It’s damning by even the start of the war.

Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#129

"This new idea could reduce steel’s carbon emissions by 90%" https://www.freethink.com/energy/decarbonizing-steel Why is steel necessary for ships? From "Plant-based epoxy enables recyclable carbon fiber" (2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30138954 : > And once it’s completed you have an insanely strong material that makes steel look weak and brittle. It’s reported to be as much as ten times stronger than st…

Carbon fiber materials have excellent tensile strengths, especially under steady-ish loads. The front of an icebreaker's hull mostly faces compressive loads, with lots of shocks from hitting ice. Try searching for "OceanGate Titan" if you want to read more about the performance of carbon fiber composites under large compressive loads in a marine environment.

Reading further from that thread about hemp on an article about carbon fiber: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30147414

> Have you here contested claims that hemp - biocomposite with resin - has greater Tensile Strength and Compressive Strength than steel and aluminum (and carbon fiber with sustainable binder)?

Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#130
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is actually a surprising that Russia is not the manufacturing capital of the world. They have super-cheap energy, Soviet-era high-quality STEM education, and 50 million cheap workers from Caucasus, Siberia, Far East Russia, and the Central Asian countries.

Soviet-era high-quality STEM education The last batch of such manufacturing apprentices went through in the mid-eighties. They're just about all gone from the workplace.

Tell that to the US aerospace industry which is full of Russian and Soviet trained engineers (who are not in their 90s).
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