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Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

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Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#201

Post by mc32 »

abigail95 wrote: post #157
randy5235 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you feel that a union wouldn’t represent your interests? Do you really believe that corporations will continue paying us well any longer than they absolutely have to? As soon as an ai or low code split comes along that can replace junior and mid level engineers, those jobs will get harder and harder to find. The rest of us will have to shoulder the responsibility of “cleaning” after those solutions and the…

You have very very heavy lifting to do if you're trying to prove a productivity improvement leads to a worse outcome. Farming automation and the green revolution didn't make us all unemployed - it meant 90% of us could do something else instead of farming. We used the productivity to just invent new forms of work that weren't possible and aren't possible in a lower productivity economy.

One has to consider the impact on dynamism. It may not matter to many but it would be something management would have to consider before entering into new areas for development.

I think unionization would impact expansion and research areas —the big bets where now if something doesn’t work the company either reorganizes the team or lets go of a team. With a union companies would operate more conservatively.

That would perhaps provide stable jobs for current job holders but limit growth for prospective job holders.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#202

Post by afavour »

zaphar wrote: post #174
afavour wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have my pick of jobs if I feel undervalued by the place I work Definitely something that is in no danger of changing at any point in the future! What a relief for all of us! We already have ample evidence that tech giants colluded to depress the salaries of their workers. I can understand being wary of unions but to suggest they’d provide absolutely nothing feels like a failure of imagination.

Software engineer is not the only job I've every had. I've been the janitor sweeping floors, I've been the guy on the assembly line. I've literally supported my family by working day labor with no certainty of continued employment. I have always been able to find a place and prove myself worthy of the pay without sacrificing my health, or family time. I've quit jobs when I no longer felt like it was the right place f…

> community support structure

...what do you think a union is?

I feel as though you're imagining the Big Bad Union that big companies love to describe. A union can be in whatever form you wish it to be. If software engineers wish to band together to form a union solely to improve their health insurance then they could just do that.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#203

Post by vasco »

pjc50 wrote: post #191
zaphar wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software engineer is not the only job I've every had. I've been the janitor sweeping floors, I've been the guy on the assembly line. I've literally supported my family by working day labor with no certainty of continued employment. I have always been able to find a place and prove myself worthy of the pay without sacrificing my health, or family time. I've quit jobs when I no longer felt like it was the right place f…

> None of what I've done is out of reach for anyone else. "Disabled workers do not exist"

You could argue for disability protections instead of unions if that's your true position. Arguing for a .01% case to make a 100% rule is disingenuous.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#204

Post by Clubber »

pjc50 wrote: post #173
Clubber wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm still paid more than 95% of people in my country. What makes you think you aren't worth much, much more? What would happen to your company if all the tech people went on vacation for a month? CEO's don't think, "We make more than 95% of businesses in our industry, I guess we can relax now." We have to act like the CEO of our careers. Also, most tech workers in the US aren't in the top 5% of earners. Unless you a…

> most tech workers aren't in the top 5% of earners No, I really did check https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/percentile-points-f... before posting that stat. (I guess this is where Americans start discovering how badly paid the UK as a whole is)

>I guess this is where Americans start discovering how badly paid the UK as a whole is

Holy moly. In the US you have to earn just over $240K USD/yr to break the top 5%. At least you don't go bankrupt when it's time for elder care.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/24/how-much-money-you-have-to-e....

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#205

Post by djha-skin »

Laborers need a union because their work is not differentiated. Anyone can dig a ditch. Most people can put grocery carts away. With a little training, most people can even drive a bus. Because of this, market forces drive businesses to treat them inhumanely and pay them so little money that they can't support a family on it.

On the other hand, engineers are highly differentiated. I'm a DevOps engineer. I'm probably one of the most highly paid engineers in my company.

I can assure you, the market is not something that I'm afraid of. Engineers do not need a union. If they get good at their jobs, they are highly differentiated.

I'd go further and say that unions would be detrimental. I remember my sister working at a grocery store and having to pay union dues cut and it would cut into her paycheck. A necessary evil perhaps for that field, but in ours would be overhead and cost that didn't need to be there. It would probably just make me poorer.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#206

Post by shortrounddev2 »

nonethewiser wrote: post #197
itsoktocry wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The best engineers are worth literally 10x the worst engineers Uh, I'm pretty sure the best employees in any field are worth 10x what the worst employees are, whether you're writing code, assembling a car or gutting fish. The economics of labour suggest unions are most valuable where there's a monopsony buyer of labour. Big Tech might fit that bill, especially when we know they colluded to depress salaries.

> Uh, I'm pretty sure the best employees in any field are worth 10x what the worst employees are, whether you're writing code, assembling a car or gutting fish. Or presumably anything else (because you said "any field"). But why? It seems like the less skill or expertise something takes the less ability there is to deviate from the average. In which case unions, if most useful for low-skilled labor like OP described,…

Jobs aren't all technical skills. You can be the best coder in the world but if you're a colossal asshole you're not going to get put in charge of other people. If you show up to work drunk or high, you're definitely not going to advance.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#207

Post by screye »

American scale and polarization make it impossible to have moderate conversations around social tools like unions.

A union doesn't need to be a mediocrity enforcing, all-encompassing beaurocracy.

Programmers don't need a union to ensure fair pay or minimum hours. Our concerns are different, and a limited union can help.

Eg:

1. Programmers need to be given 6 months heads up before big change in employment situation. (RTO, city change, etc).

2. On call hours on weekends need to be compensated as overtime.

3. Unused vacation must be compensated as overtime by year end. This also means that unlimited vacation policies should come with miminum compensable vacation days.

4. Standard minimum maternity & paternity leave policies. Also, additional compensation if layoff occurs after notice of mat/pat leave or soon after mat/pat leave.

5. All meetings from noon-1pm should have compensated food.

6. Any meetings after 11pm (of contracted timezone) should be compensated as overtime.

7. If an employee has to live more than a 1 hour rush-hour commute from work AND a company cannot find nearer housing for them at some standard rental amount, then the commute should be fully paid for.

None of these are unreasonable and all will benefit everyone. You can have students get union membership in undergrad. Universities can enforce entry permissions to career fairs on union compliance.

Now, absolute power corrupts absolutely. As vital as unions are, limiting their powers to valid areas is just as vital. That portion I still don't have figured out.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#208

Post by zaphar »

dxdm wrote: post #187
baron816 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions have also perpetuated racism, sexism, xenophobia, organized crime, government corruption, etc. It’s not all sunshine and lollipops. America abandoned unions for a reason.

> have also perpetuated racism, sexism, xenophobia, organized crime, government corruption, The same is true for political parties, religious organizations, and all sorts of other organizations that are made of people, including privately owned companies. Which of these concepts would you like to abandon, and what do you propose should be their replacement? What you say is an argument for balancing power, not for con…

Unions are forced participation. I am not forced to participate in political parties or religious organizations. In theory a Union could be purely voluntary in which case cool. I'll opt out. But then the Union loses most of it's leverage so it in practice if a Union gets introduced it's no longer voluntary it's forced for anyone who works at that company. The only choice for someone who doesn't want to contribute to the union is to leave the company.

Government is also forced participation but I accept it as necessary part of a functioning society. I don't see Software Engineering Unions as a necessary part of a functioning society though.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#209

Post by idiotsecant »

consz wrote: post #196

It’s absolutely incredible to me how much animosity unions have in the US and how self defeating the typical programmers attitude is (maybe this is just selection bias for HN?) — and I say this as someone who’s definitely not a laborer. But if I was one, I would hope I wouldn’t vote against my own class interests like it appears developers often do. Luckily, even speaking openly against my own interests here is zero…

Its a mix of crabs in a pot and 'f u I got mine' syndrome. I've largely given up trying to convince HN readers that tech work in the future will be the modern equivalent of bricklaying and will need its own protection for workers. Workers enjoy a high demand now and think that will always be the case but blacksmiths and telegraph operators thought so too.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#210

Post by shortrounddev2 »

itsoktocry wrote: post #34
alphazard wrote: post #22

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…

> The best engineers are worth literally 10x the worst engineers Uh, I'm pretty sure the best employees in any field are worth 10x what the worst employees are, whether you're writing code, assembling a car or gutting fish. The economics of labour suggest unions are most valuable where there's a monopsony buyer of labour. Big Tech might fit that bill, especially when we know they colluded to depress salaries.

Big tech might, but unlike steelworking or auto manufacturing, the barrier for entry for tech is very low, and so big tech aren't the only employers out there. They're not even the only employers paying high wages (you can get good salaries at startups as well)
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