This deglobalization thing doesnt seem to be going so well.
TSMC Arizona chip plant will be a paperweight
31–40 of 48 posts
Re: TSMC Arizona chip plant will be a paperweight
#32I’ve heard that the problem isn’t the lack of skilled engineers in AZ, but the union trades. At Intel they have to prepare the location for an electrical pull three days ahead of time. The pull must be between 9am and 4pm, M-F. I expect the unions are making similar demands at TSMC, and the Taiwanese, just like every other American business owner are pissed. However the Taiwanese think that bringing over people to do…
Scheduling work between 9-4 M-F is the reason for massive delays and budget overruns? Union tradesmen purely to blame?
Here’s a comment from another article linked in the OP to give another side to the story:
“I have intimate knowledge of this project from the beginning. There are multiple causes for this project being behind schedule and over budget. They all stem from TSMC themselves.
First, TSMC and their engineers are absolutely clueless about building to meet U.S. code. Within 8 weeks of the project starting, they were firing the Tiawan based engineers because they were clueless and could not communicate with the U.S. based partners.
Second, they are behind schedule because THEY OWE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO SUBCONTRACTORS AND ARE NOT PAYING. Yes, HUNDREDS of MILLIONS. Contractors have stopped work because they have not been paid. No wonder they want to bring in out of country labor. They won't have to worry about paying anybody. I literally have been told "this is not how we do it in Taiwan. We just settle up at the end of the project."
This should be an insult and slap in the face to all U.S. taxpayers, not just the contractors and workers who are being taken advantage of by TSMC and our local officials who are supporting them and their actions. Yes, Mayor Gallego, Senator Sinema, Senator Kelly I am calling you out. Keep telling everyone how great a deal this is for us. So TSMC wants $50 billion from U.S. tax payers, they don't want to pay hundreds of millions of dollars to contractors who have done work, and now they want to bring in their cheap slave labor so they can circumvent the work stoppage by contractors they wont pay. Everything I said is true and verifiable.”
https://9to5mac.com/2023/06/29/tsmc-arizona-chip-plant-delay...
Re: TSMC Arizona chip plant will be a paperweight
#33I’ve heard that the problem isn’t the lack of skilled engineers in AZ, but the union trades. At Intel they have to prepare the location for an electrical pull three days ahead of time. The pull must be between 9am and 4pm, M-F. I expect the unions are making similar demands at TSMC, and the Taiwanese, just like every other American business owner are pissed. However the Taiwanese think that bringing over people to do…
Yes you're probably right. The governor of Arizona doesn't realize what the most important issue in her state is right now, but you do.
Re: TSMC Arizona chip plant will be a paperweight
#34Earlier quoted context omitted.
Seems like starting an automotive manufacturing company would be far worse as a prospect yet they are popping up everywhere. That automotive industry has always been a case study in great ideas failing hard. If you succeed you get to compete with everyone else who has to fight and scratch for a profit while juggling one of the most complex undertakings imaginable. There are 150 year old established brands like Chrysl…
The cost of a fab for each new process node is roughly double the cost of the previous node. That’s not true for cars. In fact, starting a new car company is probably cheaper than a few decades ago, since most part manufacturing has been outsourced.
> That’s not true for cars. In fact, starting a new car company is probably cheaper than a few decades ago, since most part manufacturing has been outsourced.
Also most if not all the new car companies are building electric cars. My understanding is those are (in many ways) simpler to make than internal combustion engine cars.
Re: TSMC Arizona chip plant will be a paperweight
#35I don't like the reflexive union bashing in the comments, but for some documentary perspective (which to some degree reinforces the objections of the people whose comments I'm complaining about), check out the film American Factory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Factory).
I rarely like documentaries but I liked this one.
Re: TSMC Arizona chip plant will be a paperweight
#36I’ve heard that the problem isn’t the lack of skilled engineers in AZ, but the union trades. At Intel they have to prepare the location for an electrical pull three days ahead of time. The pull must be between 9am and 4pm, M-F. I expect the unions are making similar demands at TSMC, and the Taiwanese, just like every other American business owner are pissed. However the Taiwanese think that bringing over people to do…
Negotiating with the unions doesn't make any difference if there fundamentally aren't enough workers in the labor force at the currently needed skill levels. If they want more workers, you have to actually look at training programs or pulling from wider regional workers - maybe negotiate with union to take on more apprentices and accepting regional union members for the surge.
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Re: TSMC Arizona chip plant will be a paperweight
#37Everyone knew that this was just a PR move. This was the intended result. Some policy wonk somewhere thought that this was all on the up-and-up, but everyone else involved, from Apple to TSMC, and all of the mid level politicians that showed up for the photo ops knew that this was virtue signaling for votes, kickbacks, and subsidies/tax breaks.
No. This was a strategic move.Strategy(specially when it works) looks superfluous but it is not. There are strategic fields like food or semiconductors in which you need to assert independence or you will be blackmailed. E.g Germany recently made strategic mistake using the gas from the Russian pipelines AND not building alternatives. Had Germany built energy plants as alternatives, they would have not been used at a…
>Germany recently made strategic mistake using the gas from the Russian pipelines AND not building alternatives.
Recently?! The gas dependency was set in the 60's
Re: TSMC Arizona chip plant will be a paperweight
#38I’ve heard that the problem isn’t the lack of skilled engineers in AZ, but the union trades. At Intel they have to prepare the location for an electrical pull three days ahead of time. The pull must be between 9am and 4pm, M-F. I expect the unions are making similar demands at TSMC, and the Taiwanese, just like every other American business owner are pissed. However the Taiwanese think that bringing over people to do…
Scheduling work between 9-4 M-F is the reason for massive delays and budget overruns? Union tradesmen purely to blame? Here’s a comment from another article linked in the OP to give another side to the story: “I have intimate knowledge of this project from the beginning. There are multiple causes for this project being behind schedule and over budget. They all stem from TSMC themselves. First, TSMC and their engineer…
>"this is not how we do it in Taiwan"
Reminds me of the movie Gung Ho where the Japanese are trying to build cars in 80's America.
Re: TSMC Arizona chip plant will be a paperweight
#39Used to be that the US would just import scientists and engineers then develop stuff themselves. It'll be interesting in a few years to learn if this Arizona plant was just one head of the capitalist hydra and its success or failure didn't really matter all that much. I suspect that the US doesn't need to import technology in that manner to get good results; it never has in the past and I don't think that much has ch…
I really don't think you can just import scientists and engineers and essentially develop TSMC. It's not the sixties anymore, Intel has a massive R&D budget but they are not currently able to compete with TSMC. Technology is also quite advanced, I doubt it's just a few years of R&D. In fact, it's so expensive, there are only a few factories on earth capable on producing those chips. China would have done it already i…
Half the reason US started the semi war against PRC was because they knew it's pretty much that simple provided work force is culturally compatible. Ditto with foreign fab projects expanding in PRC at the time - without requirement of crazy subsidies to draw them in (big funds was for domestic indy). Industry assumed, PRC with right equipment and a few years of poaching TSMC, Samsung and whatever incumbent talent would be sufficient to get ball rolling. SKR basically did that from TW talent. IMO US can replicate east asian fabs quickly if it can replicate east asian work culture because that's the only way east asian fab owners knows how to run said fabs. They're not interested changing, because they weren't interested in expanding to US in the first place, since the business case never made sense. Huawei (possibly SMIC) 7nm did it in a few years with hands tie behind back.
Re: TSMC Arizona chip plant will be a paperweight
#40Earlier quoted context omitted.
Scheduling work between 9-4 M-F is the reason for massive delays and budget overruns? Union tradesmen purely to blame? Here’s a comment from another article linked in the OP to give another side to the story: “I have intimate knowledge of this project from the beginning. There are multiple causes for this project being behind schedule and over budget. They all stem from TSMC themselves. First, TSMC and their engineer…
>"this is not how we do it in Taiwan" Reminds me of the movie Gung Ho where the Japanese are trying to build cars in 80's America. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKNeFHBPgRo
or Chinese LCD factory in Ohio
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9351980/?ref_=ext_shr_lnk - American Factory