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TSMC Arizona chip plant will be a paperweight

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21–30 of 48 posts

Re: TSMC Arizona chip plant will be a paperweight

#21
post #3

Used to be that the US would just import scientists and engineers then develop stuff themselves. It'll be interesting in a few years to learn if this Arizona plant was just one head of the capitalist hydra and its success or failure didn't really matter all that much. I suspect that the US doesn't need to import technology in that manner to get good results; it never has in the past and I don't think that much has ch…

Why the need to shoehorn "capitalist" in everything these days?

Re: TSMC Arizona chip plant will be a paperweight

#24
post #8
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't think you can just import scientists and engineers and essentially develop TSMC. It's not the sixties anymore, Intel has a massive R&D budget but they are not currently able to compete with TSMC. Technology is also quite advanced, I doubt it's just a few years of R&D. In fact, it's so expensive, there are only a few factories on earth capable on producing those chips. China would have done it already i…

> I really don't think you can just import scientists and engineers and essentially develop TSMC. I think it's more a question of being willing to spend the money you need to stay at the cutting edge. Based purely on market logic, you can't build a TMSC because it would be too expensive and risky for modern-day capitalist investors to contemplate. But if you have resources and don't care about making a profit in the…

That was a very similar investment landscape when TSMC started up - it’s a real shame that US capitalists are so short sighted. Or maybe they’re too cheap to invest when they have control of government taps via lobbying. Why invest your own capital when you can lobby for government handouts.

Re: TSMC Arizona chip plant will be a paperweight

#25
post #24
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really don't think you can just import scientists and engineers and essentially develop TSMC. I think it's more a question of being willing to spend the money you need to stay at the cutting edge. Based purely on market logic, you can't build a TMSC because it would be too expensive and risky for modern-day capitalist investors to contemplate. But if you have resources and don't care about making a profit in the…

That was a very similar investment landscape when TSMC started up - it’s a real shame that US capitalists are so short sighted. Or maybe they’re too cheap to invest when they have control of government taps via lobbying. Why invest your own capital when you can lobby for government handouts.

Taiwan Government own 48% of TSMC stock at it founding. TSMC is not a product of free market capitalism. It is a product of the Taiwanese state.

Source: Chip Wars (2022)

Re: TSMC Arizona chip plant will be a paperweight

#26
post #2

Everyone knew that this was just a PR move. This was the intended result. Some policy wonk somewhere thought that this was all on the up-and-up, but everyone else involved, from Apple to TSMC, and all of the mid level politicians that showed up for the photo ops knew that this was virtue signaling for votes, kickbacks, and subsidies/tax breaks.

Given the Chinese stated goal to recapture Taiwan and its recent mandates of state ownership, TSMCs reliance on Taiwan soil facilities is an existential threat to their business as a private enterprise. On the one hand keeping the semiconductor dependent on Taiwan solidifies their defense by being critical to global supply chains, on the other that may not be enough. As a business they need to prepare for the loss of their major manufacturing facilities. I don’t think this is a photo op, it’s a first step in a decoupling and the establishing of an off shore base of operations outside of their main base.

I find it sad issues like visas for Taiwanese experts are at the fore here. I would look at as an opportunity to bootstrap local talent through collaboration and some percentage of those visas will turn into citizens and permanent residents, aka Americans.

Re: TSMC Arizona chip plant will be a paperweight

#27
post #25
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was a very similar investment landscape when TSMC started up - it’s a real shame that US capitalists are so short sighted. Or maybe they’re too cheap to invest when they have control of government taps via lobbying. Why invest your own capital when you can lobby for government handouts.

Taiwan Government own 48% of TSMC stock at it founding. TSMC is not a product of free market capitalism. It is a product of the Taiwanese state. Source: Chip Wars (2022)

Then it's a shame the not only US capitalism and world capitalism is incapable of investing in the long term. Though I'm fine with government support as long as the outcomes return a fair share of the benefits of the private venture back to the government.

Re: TSMC Arizona chip plant will be a paperweight

#28
I’ve heard that the problem isn’t the lack of skilled engineers in AZ, but the union trades. At Intel they have to prepare the location for an electrical pull three days ahead of time. The pull must be between 9am and 4pm, M-F. I expect the unions are making similar demands at TSMC, and the Taiwanese, just like every other American business owner are pissed. However the Taiwanese think that bringing over people to do the trade work themselves is going to improve the pace. That’s going to result in a plant which will be continuously sabotaged by the unions. What really needs to happen is the AZ Democratic Governor (or the two Democratic senators) need to step in and negotiate with the Unions. She probably doesn’t realize this is the most important issue in the state right now, and that she can make a difference.

Re: TSMC Arizona chip plant will be a paperweight

#29
Importing 500 skilled Taiwanese workers seems like a no-brainer. I don't understand this mentality that those wouldn't count as "US jobs". They would massively lift the local economy.

The article also seems incredibly short-sighted, but since it's coming from an Apple clickbait farm that's not too surprising.

Re: TSMC Arizona chip plant will be a paperweight

#30
post #28

I’ve heard that the problem isn’t the lack of skilled engineers in AZ, but the union trades. At Intel they have to prepare the location for an electrical pull three days ahead of time. The pull must be between 9am and 4pm, M-F. I expect the unions are making similar demands at TSMC, and the Taiwanese, just like every other American business owner are pissed. However the Taiwanese think that bringing over people to do…

Negotiating with the unions doesn't make any difference if there fundamentally aren't enough workers in the labor force at the currently needed skill levels. If they want more workers, you have to actually look at training programs or pulling from wider regional workers - maybe negotiate with union to take on more apprentices and accepting regional union members for the surge.
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