‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men • Hacker News Board

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#271

Post by antisthenes » Wed, Sep 06, 2023, 4:55 PM UTC

xyzelement wrote: post #256

antisthenes wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An obvious counter-point to that are the millions of short/bald/ugly/whatever guys who are married and have kids. It's a counterpoint only if you don't understand statistics at all. Sure, there are millions of short/bald guys married to women. Out of billions.

Getting married isn't a random event like a coin landing on heads... You can bias the outcome pretty much 100% through variables under your control like fitness, neatness, personality, sanity, earning power.

No, not 100%.

I've already outlined a number of things that are not under one's control.

We don't have to keep going in circles. You're free to disagree.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#272

Post by barrysteve » Wed, Sep 06, 2023, 7:08 PM UTC

anon291 wrote: post #141

barrysteve wrote: post #70

And all the warning they get is a random guardian article in the slew of media rain. This society is completely broken. My craving to return to the 1980s and 1990s is just getting worse and worse. We replaced so many functioning structures with an ocean of mirages. I legitmately have not seen an adult man who looks and acts like an authority figure should, in about fifteen years. I literally cannot take 90% of 'autho…

> Churches just want you to do their thing, with zero practical application in the short term. You say > And all the warning they get is a random guardian article in the slew of media rain. The truth is some decisions take a long time to 'make good'. I can assure you any father having kids will, at times when his newborn is fussy, his toddler annoying, not see the wisdom or 'practical application in the short term' o…

I should apologize. I'm sorry for talking out of my ass. My narrative was opinions formed from observations and whipped into casuistry.

Change to what? Authority is clamping down, my church leaders tell me I have no choice(s). Random adults in society are shooting down the idea of free will. I don't recognize myself when I look in the mirror. I am guilty of despairing.

You guys are going to 'operationalize' psychology and data, (aka men), in favour of maintaining 'planetary boundaries'.

I am conscious of all this, and the huge amount of responsibility I have for my family and their lives.

What is the point of a self, if we are all surrendering to unknowable, electronic control. What's the point of being conscious at all.

There are no ropes/levers/relations to oneself in my heart.

I was an institutional man in the 90s, I used to be myself in relation to a larger structure, built on relations and goals and achievements within it. It was heavenly.

Now my soul dies everyday, as we drift further from the light.

I just cannot get up every morning and answer a text message on a phone from a random boss and pretend I relate to it.

It is difficult having to watch yourself become the villian in relation to yourself, just to survive some unknown global change.

The same adults that describe how lovely airports were before 9/11 security (an older pilot I spoke to), are the ones in favour of stricter and stricter control.

The problem is that I can understand. I was raised to understand, analyze, critically think, interpret, calculate.

Important facts take forever to mine out of public sources, no strategic knowledge is communicated (that I can act on) and we can only observe the changes and interpret, nearly always coming to pointless narratives, but not wanting to forget the past, or the self.

How can one plan their life (or even relate to themselves) when everything changes every 2 years. Order 66 can't come fast enough, so we can have an end to the cycle of betrayals and 'unpromises'.

In conclusion, go away with the preachy suggestions that have no substance that we (or me) could bank on.

I haven't been banned (even though I'm often abrasive-ish), so I'm grateful for that, at least.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#273

Post by red-iron-pine » Wed, Sep 06, 2023, 8:14 PM UTC

antisthenes wrote: post #253

xyzelement wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

//It's just that sometimes it's not enough and looks are pretty important for women An obvious counter-point to that are the millions of short/bald/ugly/whatever guys who are married and have kids. FWIW, women are turned off by guys who are gross and don't take care of themselves. A guy who intentionally makes the best of what he's got is already ahead.

> An obvious counter-point to that are the millions of short/bald/ugly/whatever guys who are married and have kids. It's a counterpoint only if you don't understand statistics at all. Sure, there are millions of short/bald guys married to women. Out of billions.

there are millions of short bald guys who are married just in the US.

I can think of, just off the top of my head, like 3+ guys I used to work with.

More like 6 if you include friends and my barber.

the "I need Looksmaxxing" my appearance is everything screams "I am an incel and can only date supermodels, who seem to reject me"

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#274

Post by red-iron-pine » Wed, Sep 06, 2023, 8:20 PM UTC

bradlys wrote: post #254

insickness wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks are important, but you're lucky you're a man because status is just as important, especially if you're older and want to meet younger women. Lean into it: dress sharp, a little dressy and look sophisticated. There is a certain percentage of women who prefer the experienced, financially-set older guy who can show them things the younger guys can't. And to those women, looks are secondary because they don't go fo…

> but you're lucky you're a man because status is just as important Am I lucky? I work in tech. I'd say about half of the women I talk to at bars in NYC end up turning away as soon as we shift to the discussion of what I do for work. I dress much better than most men but I am short, ugly, and not blessed with the high T that is required to gain lots of muscle mass even if I am in the gym obsessively. Hate to break it…

> only talks to women in bars in NYC

> surprised that he only interacts with shallow hoes

Never, not once, had a random woman interested in my IT shit unless they're also in STEM themselves. "Boring IT guy shit" is the correct answer, and then change the subject. If they know anything about it or care, they'll ask.

You probably just boring. Change that.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#275

Post by red-iron-pine » Wed, Sep 06, 2023, 8:23 PM UTC

inerg wrote: post #166

polski-g wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. The most meaningful outcome for a child's life is the mate selection of the parents. Parenting generally has no effect; see the letter sent to Maher as a really good synopsis: https://jaymans.wordpress.com/2011/11/16/taming-the-tiger-mo...

I'm not disagreeing with what you've linked said but it's pretty well documented that there are negative events that can lead to long term impacts on children. The letter you linked seems to glance over parents who are abusive, whether that is verbal, physical, or neglectful. For those that want to dive in a little bit these are Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACE). It's not an end all be all chance that you'll develo…

You can do everything right and your kid will still have an ACE.

Lil Timmy falls down a well, or has a really handsy neighbour, or has to see someone get hit by a car.

Like, obviously, don't beat your kids, but you don't need to be superlative parent, esp. since a great deal of their education and raising will happen, essentially, in someone elses workplace (i.e. school).

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#276

Post by antisthenes » Wed, Sep 06, 2023, 8:53 PM UTC

red-iron-pine wrote: post #273

antisthenes wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An obvious counter-point to that are the millions of short/bald/ugly/whatever guys who are married and have kids. It's a counterpoint only if you don't understand statistics at all. Sure, there are millions of short/bald guys married to women. Out of billions.

there are millions of short bald guys who are married just in the US. I can think of, just off the top of my head, like 3+ guys I used to work with. More like 6 if you include friends and my barber. the "I need Looksmaxxing" my appearance is everything screams "I am an incel and can only date supermodels, who seem to reject me"

Victim blaming and not understanding how statistics work.

You're a real catch!

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#277

Post by dirtybirdnj » Thu, Sep 07, 2023, 12:54 AM UTC

Glawen wrote: post #230

dirtybirdnj wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who does not have children I find it at times difficult to interact with parents specifically because of this mentality. Anything that challenges their authority over the kids (correct parenting, behavior, values etc) can be seen as a direct attack and people will get very rude and offensive. Varying levels of aggressiveness... but as someone on the other side of this there seems to be very little warning…

> Anything that challenges their authority over the kids (correct parenting, behavior, values etc) can be seen as a direct attack and people will get very rude and offensive. I'll ignore parenting advice, even more from people without children. The thing is that everyone is different, and I don't believe that there is a better way or a miraculous method which will make your kids the greatest. Secondly, it is a selfis…

> I don't see why I should adopt someone else's values.

Sticking to your values is all well and good but being willfully resistant to introspection is the problem. Assuming your values are always good and never without bias is lying to yourself. Nobody is perfect.

My parents tell me VERY convincing stories about how I had a great childhood and they did the best they could. They fucked me up in ways they could have never imagined and at times they just CAN'T understand why what they taught me isn't helpful or useful.

Pass on values to your kids but make sure you're not giving them blind spots too. This requires honesty and self evaluation most people are unwilling to engage in.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#278

Post by pertymcpert » Thu, Sep 07, 2023, 5:32 PM UTC

mbg721 wrote: post #97

pertymcpert wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never seen that happen myself, but I have heard of it. My only theory is that it happens in places which are heavily socially/politically conservative and "backwards", where women can't imagine men being an actual real parent.

I live in a flyover state and have never had that sort of thing happen...I actually assumed the opposite, that socially/politically liberal areas would be less accustomed to seeing two-parent households and would be wealthy enough to have busybodies with too much time on their hands.

Gender equality is correlated with social liberalism, so that makes it more logical of a theory than that.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#279

Post by 10g1k » Thu, Sep 07, 2023, 10:22 PM UTC

tr888 wrote: post #33

10g1k wrote: post #27

Evolution. It's programmed into you, the drive to reproduce. And that's a good thing. You won't understand how important and amazing it is until you have your own kid. NOTHING is more important.

I really hate this attitude. It's a condescending and patronising attitude - that men who don't (or can't) have children are less. Are you really saying that absolutely nothing is more important than reproducing? For everyone, in every situation? I sincerely hope not.

Read what I said, not what you imagine due to your fear of whatever. I said it is programmed into us. I did not say anyone is less or more. Although reality is that different people are less or more in various ways.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#280

Post by helmchenlord » Sat, Sep 09, 2023, 11:07 AM UTC

xyzelement wrote: post #198

basisword wrote: post #28

Interesting article. I think part of the issue is education. We get lots of education and resources to help us not have children. But the logistics of finding a partner, maybe marrying, maybe buying property, and then starting to have children is ignored. You very suddenly reach an age as a man where you realise these things are all going to take time and that might be time you don't have. Or time your partner doesn'…

It's similar to how people are now fatter and sicker despite access to more information and options vs prior generations. The limited choices before "happened to" line up to what is for many a healthier diet and exercise pattern. Similar with kids - there's less pressure to have kids now and easier excuses not to - but that road takes you to not a good place in the long run.

Only a minority of people who don't have children regret it, so your last statement is definitely too broad. Most of us are happily child-free.