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‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

theguardian.com

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Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#221

Post by thefz »

jokoon wrote: post #44

I'm 38, and I'm socially unable to meet women outside of online dating, I've had enough girlfriend and a long, 8 years relationship (she did not want kids). I don't really understand that social norm of having kids. I can understand sexual desire, but is there really a "desire to have kids"? Is having kids really some kind of moral imperative to "continue the human species"? Anyway, women have high standards, which i…

> I don't really understand that social norm of having kids. I can understand sexual desire, but is there really a "desire to have kids"?

Has been proved to be culture induced. Human body in a vacuum can only feel lust.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#222

Post by thefz »

tr888 wrote: post #40

Tough topic. I have some personal experience with it. The thing I struggle most with is the fact that I am often looked down upon (either consciously or subconsciously) by those that have "achieved" parenthood. Having children is an odd status symbol in Western society.

I'm a mom, what's your superpower?

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#223

Post by thefz »

10g1k wrote: post #27

Evolution. It's programmed into you, the drive to reproduce. And that's a good thing. You won't understand how important and amazing it is until you have your own kid. NOTHING is more important.

Drive is to mate. That' waaayyy distant from the desire to have kids, which no mammal on earth is biologically wired to feel. It's a cultural/rational thing, such as wanting new shoes.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#224

Post by thefz »

em-bee wrote: post #71
basisword wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like most young men have always wanted to extend their youth and avoid the responsibility that family life would bring. However, until recently (with easy access to birth control, abortion, and proper education) this wasn't really possible. You would accidentally have a child and be forced into the lifestyle you were trying to avoid. And most of the time things worked out and you were forced into a situation t…

i think the smart thing to do is to have kids when you are 20 and then enjoy life when you are 40. at that time you are much better off financially (unless you live in a country where you have to pay for your kids education maybe) which gives you a lot more freedom to explore your interests.

> i think the smart thing to do is to have kids when you are 20

Please, read that sentence again.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#225

Post by helij »

anon291 wrote: post #216
dagw wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trying for kids means making sure you have sex at the right times of the month, something humanity has known about for millennia. Equally people not 'trying for kids' made sure to only have sex at the 'wrong' time of the month, again something humans have been doing for millennia.

Up until very recently, there was very little knowledge that pregnancy lasted nine months... even among the 'learned'. Old pregnancy manuals talk about pregnancies taking anywhere from a few months to many many months. Without ultrasound and HcG tests, there is very little indication a woman is pregant until she starts showing or feeling the baby (and even then, a new mother may not even notice until she's showing an…

Quick comment about your first paragraph. There is a really strong signal that a woman is pregnant in absence of period.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#226

Post by mcphage »

defrost wrote: post #106
mcphage wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "we" already failed as a society by not sufficienty scrutinising the bulk of adoptions to ostensibly stable 'ideal' families in decades past That is correct, and what is trying to be corrected for now.

Sure .. just as long as crazy assumptons aren't made such as automatically flagging single men, single women or homosexual couples. The social history I'm most familiar with had a wide systemic issue with wealthy elite pillar of the community power couples adopting in "unwanted children" trained for menial servant roles as nannies and living breathing sex dolls .. not that you can accuse chief justices and their scal…

> Sure .. just as long as crazy assumptons aren't made such as automatically flagging single men, single women or homosexual couples.

I agree completely.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#227

Post by Glawen »

wkat4242 wrote: post #95
MaKey wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this an American thing? I can't imagine that happening in Europe, but maybe I'm just a bit naive.

Yeah we're kinda over the traditional family thing here in Europe. I would bet two fathers taking their son to the playground would raise some eyebrows in the US too, depending on the area of course. Whereas here it wouldn't.

It definitely will raise eyebrows, but maybe noone will say a thing. It really depends on the location though.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#228

Post by mcphage »

em-bee wrote: post #121
defrost wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure .. just as long as crazy assumptons aren't made such as automatically flagging single men, single women or homosexual couples. The social history I'm most familiar with had a wide systemic issue with wealthy elite pillar of the community power couples adopting in "unwanted children" trained for menial servant roles as nannies and living breathing sex dolls .. not that you can accuse chief justices and their scal…

that sounds like something from movies. was that really that widespread? screening is really a challenge. i mean the only thing you can really do is to analyze the motivation of why someone wants to adopt. but most people that you would not want to allow to adopt can go and have their own children anyways. when does preventing adoption turn into preventing to have children? or why should anyone who could have their o…

> why should anyone who could have their own children be prevented from adopting?

I don't understand this at all. People with a history of abuse or neglect can have their own children—and often they do—but why on earth would you use that as an excuse to give them more children to abuse? Like, what is your thinking here?

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#229

Post by em-bee »

thefz wrote: post #224
em-bee wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i think the smart thing to do is to have kids when you are 20 and then enjoy life when you are 40. at that time you are much better off financially (unless you live in a country where you have to pay for your kids education maybe) which gives you a lot more freedom to explore your interests.

> i think the smart thing to do is to have kids when you are 20 Please, read that sentence again.

it appears you are coming from an area/culture where this idea is ridiculous or unheard of.

i can assure you i meant what i said. there is absolutely nothing wrong with having children at 20, or even earlier. however it requires a community and a society that is supportive of that. it works very well in china, because the culture there does support it.

traditionally, the young couple lives together with the husbands family and can rely on their guidance and support raising the children. this way there is no problem with the young parents continuing their studies or working, because the household is managed by the grandparents. where i used to live every morning i would see lots of grandparents who themselves where in their 40s or 50s playing with babies while the young parents were off to work.

i understand that in western culture of independence where every couple lives on their own away from the grandparents, and with jokes about in-laws, this is hard to imagine. but really this is a different way to look at life and i believe it has many advantages.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#230

Post by Glawen »

dirtybirdnj wrote: post #107
10g1k wrote: post #27

Evolution. It's programmed into you, the drive to reproduce. And that's a good thing. You won't understand how important and amazing it is until you have your own kid. NOTHING is more important.

As someone who does not have children I find it at times difficult to interact with parents specifically because of this mentality. Anything that challenges their authority over the kids (correct parenting, behavior, values etc) can be seen as a direct attack and people will get very rude and offensive. Varying levels of aggressiveness... but as someone on the other side of this there seems to be very little warning…

> Anything that challenges their authority over the kids (correct parenting, behavior, values etc) can be seen as a direct attack and people will get very rude and offensive.

I'll ignore parenting advice, even more from people without children. The thing is that everyone is different, and I don't believe that there is a better way or a miraculous method which will make your kids the greatest.

Secondly, it is a selfish reason: Being parent is a unique opportunity to grow a human to your values, and hopefully leading to success. I don't see why I should adopt someone else's values.

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