Live data from Hacker News

‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

theguardian.com

101–110 of 281 posts

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#101
post #24

Men can have children even in their 80s, rich people do it all the time.

FTA: > Instead, he said: “There’s this mistaken belief that men are fertile across their lifespan, so there’s no imperative to get on with it.”

But it's true. Men don't have an expiration date on fertility like women do.

As they get older, the chance of random infertility increases but this is something that's present at any age.

The bigger impediment would be age difference though. I wouldn't want to have a child in my 50s as I'd be so out of sync with their life.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who just had a kid, I agree. You don’t have to overthink it. At the end of the day all they need is a calorie surplus and shelter. That’s it. Everything else is a bonus. As a parent you can put as much or as little work into it as you like. Time is going to pass and they’ll grow older regardless. It’s not like a tech startup where you have to put work in or it’ll crash and burn.

Bad parenting or neglectful often produces bad outcomes does it not? This is unfortunate to read. Of course everything doesn’t need to be planned, but food and shelter are the bare minimum.

Bad outcome in what way? Even if you’re a so-called bad parent, they’ll still have a similar life expectancy, and a similar chance of creating grandchildren.

Maybe they won’t be an A student when they reach school but does it actually matter?

There’s kids who literally survived the Holocaust in Nazi Germany and lived very successful lives after.

That said there is a natural instinct to be a decent parent. You don’t really have to try or be ready to. Just need to be around. In my opinion it’s similar to the instinct to turn off a burning stove - a bunch of common sense stuff that requires zero planning.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#103
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really hate this attitude. It's a condescending and patronising attitude - that men who don't (or can't) have children are less. Are you really saying that absolutely nothing is more important than reproducing? For everyone, in every situation? I sincerely hope not.

If you look at things objectively, then yes, it is the most important for the species. If you look at things relatively, then no, there's a lot of factors at play and everyone does not need to have kids (overpopulation concerns, cost of living, personal preferences, etc). That being said, having kids brings so much perspective to a life already lived. You almost live a second (or third, forth, fifth, etc) life vicari…

Looking at things from the perspective of the species is not equivalent to looking at things objectively. Hell, there is no such thing as an objective measure of life. How can I objectively measure that a life is worth living? What if my child only lives for a few years, in agony due to getting cancer? Was such a short life worth the pain? It's impossible to say.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#104
> When that is not by choice, regret can grow into pain.

This thinking is flawed. Here's the solution and your road to happiness. Foster the ability to accept, be grateful and by that weaken tendencies to regret. Because _this_ is the only difference between people who regret when they are old (or pretty much any other time in their life) and those who don't. That's all. What you practice is what you become. You practice regretting and you don't have children => you'll regret that. You practice regretting and you do have children => you'll either regret that or something else.

It's that simple.

> he tries to stay indoors and ignore the family celebrations outside.

there you have it - that's the attitude which has you likely end up lonely. he just keeps up the old pattern without reflecting. why not participate in one way or another. he doesn't have a son or daughter but he can have positive interactions. instead - he stays indoors to protect himself emotionally.

> So many ambushes and triggers for my anguish.

it's ambushes and triggers. looking for reasons of your pain outside of yourself is human and normal - we all do it - but it's often not going to make positive difference.

...

won't bother reading on - this article is lacking any deeper reflection and almost reads like a government ordered attempt to disseminate FUD in men to manipulate the birth rate positively.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#105
post #44

I'm 38, and I'm socially unable to meet women outside of online dating, I've had enough girlfriend and a long, 8 years relationship (she did not want kids). I don't really understand that social norm of having kids. I can understand sexual desire, but is there really a "desire to have kids"? Is having kids really some kind of moral imperative to "continue the human species"? Anyway, women have high standards, which i…

I can understand sexual desire, but is there really a "desire to have kids"?

there is even a desire for kids without desire for sex. which can be filled with adoption.

the desire that i don't understand or feel is the need to have kids to be my biological descendants

i see my kids as given to me as a responsibility to raise and care for. regardless of our biological relationship. for me "i want kids" means "i want that responsibility"

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#106
post #91
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN is a global forum spanning multiple countries and even more societal mores. To your point though, "we" already failed as a society by not sufficienty scrutinising the bulk of adoptions to ostensibly stable 'ideal' families in decades past. A number of these adoptions turned out fine, many did not.

> "we" already failed as a society by not sufficienty scrutinising the bulk of adoptions to ostensibly stable 'ideal' families in decades past That is correct, and what is trying to be corrected for now.

Sure .. just as long as crazy assumptons aren't made such as automatically flagging single men, single women or homosexual couples.

The social history I'm most familiar with had a wide systemic issue with wealthy elite pillar of the community power couples adopting in "unwanted children" trained for menial servant roles as nannies and living breathing sex dolls .. not that you can accuse chief justices and their scaly mates down the yacht club of that kind of thing, of course.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#107
post #27

Evolution. It's programmed into you, the drive to reproduce. And that's a good thing. You won't understand how important and amazing it is until you have your own kid. NOTHING is more important.

As someone who does not have children I find it at times difficult to interact with parents specifically because of this mentality. Anything that challenges their authority over the kids (correct parenting, behavior, values etc) can be seen as a direct attack and people will get very rude and offensive. Varying levels of aggressiveness... but as someone on the other side of this there seems to be very little warning or notice that even minor transgressions can cause defensive outbursts.

There is NO LIMIT to what people will do for their kids and sometimes in a very corporate way they will use those kids to justify their awful behavior on others.

I'm dealing with some burnout related to bad job experiences, something in the way you punctuated your statement just gave me the heebie jeebies.

I apologize if this is rude just trying to articulate something I can't quite explain. Family members have kids that are awesome, I have friends that are parents that have managed to remain respectful and tolerant.

I think having kids changes your brain in an irrevocable way and sometimes people don't want to admit that.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#108
post #57

We ought to be converting these people into adoptive or foster parents.

Yeah, I agree. There's an easy solution for regret of not having kids, adoption. It'll be better for you and for the kid(s). There's no reason this childless person can't change his situation if he's capable of caring for a kid.

This person is 72 years old. Maybe people don't understand what parents mean by "kids take a lot of work". Take everything you do right now and double it. Maybe triple it, because it's harder when they don't know what they're doing at all and you need to teach as you go. All your household chores: double. Work: double (homework). Getting friggin' dressed in the morning: double. Wake up extra early too because school starts at 7:30 and they can't eat their own breakfast in a timely fashion, let alone make it.

That's not to mention that at 72 years old, there's a good chance he's going to keel over and leave that child fatherless pretty soon. Super traumatically too because guess who's going to find his body after he passed in his sleep?

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#109
post #44

I'm 38, and I'm socially unable to meet women outside of online dating, I've had enough girlfriend and a long, 8 years relationship (she did not want kids). I don't really understand that social norm of having kids. I can understand sexual desire, but is there really a "desire to have kids"? Is having kids really some kind of moral imperative to "continue the human species"? Anyway, women have high standards, which i…

[deleted]

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#110
post #44

I'm 38, and I'm socially unable to meet women outside of online dating, I've had enough girlfriend and a long, 8 years relationship (she did not want kids). I don't really understand that social norm of having kids. I can understand sexual desire, but is there really a "desire to have kids"? Is having kids really some kind of moral imperative to "continue the human species"? Anyway, women have high standards, which i…

This desire is why our species continue to breed despite the need to share resources. So yes, it's normal and natural.
Post reply on HN