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Norway rolls back EV incentives while boosting walking and cycling (2022)

electrek.co

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Re: Norway rolls back EV incentives while boosting walking and cycling (2022)

#131

Post by lm28469 »

nologic01 wrote: post #6

There is a very clear flow chart * Walk Else * Take Bicycle Else * Take Electric Bike or Fixed Track Public Transport Else * Use Electric Automobile or Bus Else * Use Fossil Fuel Automobile or Airplane Subsidies, incentives etc must align with this flowchart. EV is seen as a savior for economies and urban structures that are not viable to start with

> EV is seen as a savior for economies and urban structures that are not viable to start with

EVs are pushed because it's where the money and lobbies are. It's the "business as usual but clean™" option. Companies keep making bank, people keep their lifestyles, &c.

People (want to) believe in it because it's the 0 effort solution

Re: Norway rolls back EV incentives while boosting walking and cycling (2022)

#132

Post by NorwegianDude »

timc3 wrote: post #115
willio58 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Outside of Oslo the infrastructure is built with car reliance deincentivizing cars and incentivizing walking and bikes won’t make much difference. To me this reads like "Cars have won, give up on walking and biking in your cities." That's just not a solution. Just because car lobbyists have successfully ruined nearly all US cities and a good amount of European ones doesn't mean we just sit down and continue to let…

Have you been in Norway? The weather can be harsh, the Norwegians are some of the best in dealing with it in the world, but covering large parts of Norway with public transport is difficult. I used to bike in Bergen, Norway in the winter and it can be really dangerous - I saw many accidents even from the locals.

And Bergen has very mild winter compared to the rest of Norway. Rain on the other hand is a different story...

Re: Norway rolls back EV incentives while boosting walking and cycling (2022)

#133

Post by lm28469 »

melling wrote: post #13
vinni2 wrote: post #4

This is hypocrisy Norwegian economy is heavily driven by oil industry. Instead of planning to phase out oil they just makes these ineffective policies. People are going to buy big electric cars even with VAT.

Norway doesn’t decide to phase out oil, consumers do. The world needs 100 million barrels a day. We are at peak coal too. https://www.iea.org/news/global-coal-demand-set-to-remain-at...

> Norway doesn’t decide to phase out oil, consumers do.

A yes, "it's YOUR fault, YOU should be ashamed, bad consumer !"

It's not the industries or governments job to plan and regulate things, it's the people's job, of course. It's like going to the doctor for a cancer to be told "sorry we can't do anything the cancer wants to keep growing, we can't use chemo the cancer didn't approve it sorry" lmao

Re: Norway rolls back EV incentives while boosting walking and cycling (2022)

#134

Post by NorwegianDude »

8note wrote: post #74
vinni2 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Norway is not Netherlands. Try biking in -20 C and go shopping for a family on a bike. Where I live bike paths are not regularly cleared they can get icy and dangerous. Public transport is the way to go. Biking can complement when and where possible. I say this as a person who commutes to work with bike everyday.

If that's the video I'm thinking of, it's referencing Finland, where people bike all year because the bicycle infrastructure is well maintained. Try driving in -20 on unmaintained roads, and you'll find the same thing as your current statement about biking. The temperature is largely unrelated to the infrastructure's useability

Driving in -20 is good, and often more so if the road has not been salted. Roads are the most slippery around 0 degrees.

Re: Norway rolls back EV incentives while boosting walking and cycling (2022)

#135

Post by Fricken »

Tade0 wrote: post #112
Fricken wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

-20°C is plenty comfortable to ride if you know how to dress for the weather.

-20°C is the temperature at which even snot freezes which is in and of itself uncomfortable. I grew up with winters occasionally reaching -30°C and the logistics of walking (and cycling) in such an environment are simply time-consuming.

Getting a car started in those conditions is time consuming as well. Then you sit in a cold car freezing your ass off while waiting for it to warm up.

On a bike it takes about as long to get the blood flowing, and once acclimatized the ride can be quite nice.

I've been out riding in -42°C (mostly just to prove I could), and at those temperatures I started running into mechanical problems.

The metal of different components shrank at different rates, and my fork was binding up in the headtube, and the freewheel loosened off such that the ratchets wouldn't always connect with the pawls, causing slippage.

Re: Norway rolls back EV incentives while boosting walking and cycling (2022)

#136

Post by Tade0 »

Fricken wrote: post #135
Tade0 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

-20°C is the temperature at which even snot freezes which is in and of itself uncomfortable. I grew up with winters occasionally reaching -30°C and the logistics of walking (and cycling) in such an environment are simply time-consuming.

Getting a car started in those conditions is time consuming as well. Then you sit in a cold car freezing your ass off while waiting for it to warm up. On a bike it takes about as long to get the blood flowing, and once acclimatized the ride can be quite nice. I've been out riding in -42°C (mostly just to prove I could), and at those temperatures I started running into mechanical problems. The metal of different compo…

> Getting a car started in those conditions is time consuming as well.

Not if you have a garage or a remote startup function in your car. This is what you're going up against proposing that people cycle in freezing temperatures.

> On a bike it takes about as long to get the blood flowing, and once acclimatized the ride can be quite nice.

That's the same as using the outdoor pool in an aquapark in winter, which I enjoy doing because... there's almost no one there at that time of the year!

Re: Norway rolls back EV incentives while boosting walking and cycling (2022)

#137

Post by datameta »

datameta wrote: post #3
anonporridge wrote: post #2

Fantastic news! EVs already have escape velocity in Norway to replace ICE cars, and incentivizing more walking and cycling not only promotes more efficient modes of short distance travel, but makes the population healthier. Over reliance on cars kills us slowly via lifestyle degradation.

I believe walking is as important as meditation for self-regulation of organ systems (including brain and heart).

An addendum: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/feeling-it/201309/20... https://www.healthline.com/health/benefits-of-walking#energy...

Re: Norway rolls back EV incentives while boosting walking and cycling (2022)

#138

Post by kiba »

lb1lf wrote: post #124
willio58 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like a chicken or the egg issue to me. Why are the bike paths unmaintained? Because they aren't used as often as in a country like the Netherlands. But how can we increase biking in Norway if the roads are unmaintained? The only answer is radically changing the way we view walking in biking in cities. They are the base of all transportation, and we should treat them as the most important mode of transport for…

Also, keep in mind that The Netherlands has a population density some 20 times that of Norway, while being largely, uh, flat, which lots of Norway definitely isn't. There's no doubt maintained bike paths would make cycling more viable, and in the cities great progress have been made in that respect, from what I can see. However, for a significant part of the population, that simply isn't much of an option as roads an…

Population density across the whole nation can be misleading, because we're summing wild area, rural area, and urban area. What matters more is the amount of supportable infrastructure a given area could support, which is the population density for that specific area.

From what I googled, Norway's urban population is about 83%, so cycling infrastructure should go a long way.

It also shouldn't be terribly expensive to support rural cycling infrastructure either due to the lack of wear and tear that such infrastructure experienced compared to roads for cars and other vehicles.

Re: Norway rolls back EV incentives while boosting walking and cycling (2022)

#139

Post by kiba »

ekianjo wrote: post #67
anonporridge wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The primary point of the video, is that when adequate infrastructure and servicing (plowing and de icing) exists, very cold, harsh weather doesn't decrease bike ridership. In the example city, Oulu Finland, they see a consistent 22% ridership all the way down to -20C, because they incentivize cycling with well designed and maintained infrastructure.

> harsh weather doesn't decrease bike ridership. So what? Maybe it's because those people who only have a bike don't have any other means to get around? You need to look at different reasons before jumping to conclusions.

Rich societies can afford for a large amount of people owning cars.

Re: Norway rolls back EV incentives while boosting walking and cycling (2022)

#140

Post by Fricken »

Tade0 wrote: post #136
Fricken wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting a car started in those conditions is time consuming as well. Then you sit in a cold car freezing your ass off while waiting for it to warm up. On a bike it takes about as long to get the blood flowing, and once acclimatized the ride can be quite nice. I've been out riding in -42°C (mostly just to prove I could), and at those temperatures I started running into mechanical problems. The metal of different compo…

> Getting a car started in those conditions is time consuming as well. Not if you have a garage or a remote startup function in your car. This is what you're going up against proposing that people cycle in freezing temperatures. > On a bike it takes about as long to get the blood flowing, and once acclimatized the ride can be quite nice. That's the same as using the outdoor pool in an aquapark in winter, which I enjo…

Well, cars are noisy, dirty, expensive to both individuals and taxpayers, they clog up roads, and are inherently anti-social.

We have a climate crisis, an obesity crisis, and also a mental health crisis, and bikes serve to alleviate all those things.

Stuff like morals and good citizenship: people just don't seem to value these things anymore. That's tragic, and also catastrophic.

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