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"Lighten up"

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Re: "Lighten up"

#541

Post by derrida »

Talking of sexism.

Dear Y-combinator community, you have been caught red-handed @ 17:50 in this video at Startup School http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9m9vPAlb_0&t=17m50s

Would you laugh if it were a male speaking? I kind of wish people would, then men might know the feeling of what it's like. Can you imagine if this happened to you?

This isn't PG's fault. It's the idiots in the audience. You can have a high-IQ, make brilliant stuff and still be a sexist asshole.

I'm a male, and I hate this stuff, because my it's my friends that are the ones that are affected by this behaviour.

Re: "Lighten up"

#542

Post by kamaal »

chunkybacon wrote: post #474
ajross wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is always where geeks run off the rails in discussions like this. We want to come up with rules for things: either this statement is "sexist" or it is not, and here is the objective reason for that decision. But it misses the point. Context matters. In a utopian environment where women felt equally respected, sure, a sideways/slightly-inappropriate comment would be fine. In some workplaces today that might even…

The rule is: some girls like it, some girls don't. You have to know what they will like before you open your mouth.

My rule is Simple, Girls or Boys. Black or white, no matter what race, religion, ethnicity or even personal preferences people have.

Deal with them professionally. Judge them with only on performance, nothing else.

Re: "Lighten up"

#543

Post by mkramlich »

Swizec wrote: post #194
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!"...As I'm getting older, I see how sexist and demeaning this is. At the risk of revealing myself to be a chauvinistic jerk, is this kind of response sexist and demeaning, or just inappropriate for the workplace? Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention (in the majority of cases)? Would it be sexist and demeaning for me to not…

Public perception (as judged by art, which usually represents a slightly caricatured version of reality) seems to imply that your attractiveness and the appropriateness of your comments are inversely correlated. That is to say, if you tell a woman she looks good, it will be a compliment if she likes you, a sexist remark if she doesn't.

> That is to say, if you tell a woman she looks good, it will be a compliment if she likes you, a sexist remark if she doesn't.

this. nailed it. it depends way more on how she feels and what she thinks of you, than on whether the words/act itself is somehow inherently wrong or sexist. that doesn't mean it's wise to say things or do things like that in the workplace: it isn't. but based on decades of actual experience on this planet this, your observation, rings true to me.

Re: "Lighten up"

#544

Post by javascriptlol »

jasonlotito wrote: post #505
javascriptlol wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How.. hypocritical. Dumbo.

Hypocritical implies I'm some how under the impression my comment is contributing to the central discussion. That I might teach you some manners makes the price worth it. I can see however that learning is not something you do.

No post body was provided.

Re: "Lighten up"

#545

Post by mkramlich »

freshhawk wrote: post #459
scott_s wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then it's a good thing this isn't Reddit.

Yeah, the conversation here has been so much more enlightened.

I've generally found that when it comes to matters of gender and sexuality, the more "enlightened" one claims to be, the far less actual experience in life, with real people, one actually has. The college/twenty-something years in particular are wonderful for many things, and universities are wonderful for many things, but one thing they're bad at is giving you a realistic view of the world as it actually is, and people as they actually are, rather than as how one ideally might like them to be. A view less based on reality than based on theory or political agenda.

Re: "Lighten up"

#546

Post by sophacles »

crusso wrote: post #112
pingswept wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think there's a conflict between sexism and fun? As in, "Well, I'd like to stop making sexist jokes, but then it would be so boring here." I would rather work in an office where the jokes are of the funny sort, rather than the makes-one-person-feel-miserable sort. I really don't think there's any overlap between funny jokes and sexist jokes.

> Do you think there's a conflict between sexism and fun? As in, "Well, I'd like to stop making sexist jokes, but then it would be so boring here." I would phrase it, "If everyone's humor had to be bland Disney G-rated fare, then a lot of fun would have been sucked out of our work environment."

There is a lot of humor to be had that is both appropriate and not G-rated. Humorous personal stories about awkward situations or odd situations, jokes about things that happened to people on the team (like the time susan brought the server down, or bob's ridiculous obsession with 80s pop), movie references, sexual innuendo (thats what s/he said is usually not sexist), political jokes, topical news jokes, and on and on.

I'm so sure you are going to come back with some "blah blah politically correct blah blah" disingenuity, I will adress it now: No, it's not all about PC and rules and whatnot, it's about genuine respect. Making comments and jokes centered on a person which aren't about that person, but about their membership in a class is generally not cool. It's called othering (and sometimes objectification). Othering is exclusionary, and a good joke for the target (but sometimes a good joke to the in-crowd, it solidifies their superiority!). Basically most jokes are OK, if they don't hinge on "and that's why that group is inferior and different from us".

Re: "Lighten up"

#547

Post by [deleted] »

drostie wrote: post #227
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!"...As I'm getting older, I see how sexist and demeaning this is. At the risk of revealing myself to be a chauvinistic jerk, is this kind of response sexist and demeaning, or just inappropriate for the workplace? Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention (in the majority of cases)? Would it be sexist and demeaning for me to not…

Sexism is endemic to the society and to the relationships which generate that comment. So, right. Imagine that you're a woman. You're told from a very young age that you have to watch what you wear, and where you wear it, and how you walk in it, how well-lit it is -- you don't want that sort of Attention. And wear high heels, they make you more attractive -- but don't wear high heels because they might be clumsy if y…

[deleted]

Re: "Lighten up"

#548

Post by mkramlich »

georgieporgie wrote: post #397
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!"...As I'm getting older, I see how sexist and demeaning this is. At the risk of revealing myself to be a chauvinistic jerk, is this kind of response sexist and demeaning, or just inappropriate for the workplace? Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention (in the majority of cases)? Would it be sexist and demeaning for me to not…

Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention (in the majority of cases)? So, I'm not going to agree or disagree with you, since I don't really know exactly what you're saying. I will say this, though: there is professional attire for women. Generally speaking, this doesn't involve form-hugging clothing. A fitted women's dress shirt is not form-hugging, by the way. Personally, I recognize that I…

> Personally, I recognize that I have an unfortunate automatic physiological response to breasts.

You've been programmed to think this is bad, unhealthy or unnatural by people with an agenda. There's another school of thought that says it's ok, normal, natural, and healthy. Humans are hard-wired for sex and we've been having sex like rabbits for millions of years otherwise we wouldn't be here. There are many situations and places and modes where we pretend it doesn't exist, but it's a lie, at best a convenient intellectual abstraction in order to focus on productive matters. But it's always there, lurking. Again, for most healthy people it is anyway.

Re: "Lighten up"

#549

Post by stcredzero »

mtoddh wrote: post #151
stcredzero wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be sad if my relationship with my coworkers couldn't handle, let alone thrive upon, humorous interactions. There is a big difference underneath the surface, though on the surface, many such incidents look like just "joking around." The difference has to do with social distance. If you feel an off-color remark is appropriate for someone you barely know, then I hate to tell you, but you're on one end of an asym…

men in the US felt entitled to join conversations with and sit at the same table with a pair of young women they didn't know and had just met Unrelated to the thread, but isn't this how you get know people you've just met?

The key is entitled. Men used to be able to assume they'd be welcomed. No need to ask.

Re: "Lighten up"

#550

Post by tsotha »

Damn, I'm glad I don't have to work with such a prickly person. Men have to deal with minor sleights and annoyances, too. That's why they tell you to "lighten up". Because you're not special.
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