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"Lighten up"

therealkatie.net

91–100 of 829 posts

Re: "Lighten up"

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it has to be immediate and public. That doesn't mean severe or disrespectful. Everyone has to do it, but it certainly should be set up from the top down that this is unacceptable and will stop. I take a page from the Results Only Work Environment: http://www.rowe.iambestbuy.com/sludge_busting.html

Maukdaddy says that "it depends on the type of personality you're dealing with," and I think that's very true with regards to immediate-and-public versus later-and-in-private. With many people, an embarrassing confrontation in front of the whole team will cause them to dig deeper, because their pride is on the line. The same person might respond more thoughtfully to a private expression of disapproval.

An advantage of doing it in public is that others can see that it's been done. This could include victims of the oppressive joke who will now see justice previal and might stand a smidge taller, and possible future (or past) 'offendors' who will see that that they should be more professional and not make the same mistake as the other person.

Re: "Lighten up"

#92
post #34

Outside of IT, nobody ever comments on low cut dresses? I am glad I don't have to deal with things like the ones mentioned in the article, just wanted to chime in and say that most programming jobs suck anyway. So it seems possible to me that the expression of the suckiness apparently took on some sexist form, that is not to say that the male colleagues don't suffer through crap in the same job. It is definitely poss…

Are you OK with being on a team where one of your teammates feels stressed out, defensive, and alienated because of comments being made by another member of your team? Would you be OK with it if the comments were about their personal appearance? Their hair? The quality of their clothing? Their accent? Lots of funny jokes to be had about accents! Are you OK with any of this?

No? I didn't think so. Me neither. So what are you really arguing about here?

She pointed out a lot of sexist bullshit she had to deal with. The low-cut-dress thing was just one of them. Are you now a little more alert to the fact that what you might have thought was an innocuous joke actually made a teammate feel like they have a target on their back? I am! I thought to myself, "wow, I can imagine people I've worked with in the past who would say something like that; holy shit, I might have even laughed!". Maybe you too? Then she did you a favor by speaking up.

It'd be good if people would stop expecting the Magna Carta from posts like this.

Re: "Lighten up"

#93
"Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" ... Go to HR and get stuck with his work when they move or can him?

The thing is, we live in a legal environment where she probably could go to HR and get him moved or fired for saying this. And yet, some men are still sexist jerks to women in the workplace. This suggests that all the blog-posting and HN-comment-hand-wringing in the world won't make a bit of difference.

Don't lighten up—accept. When being able to fire a guy for commenting on a woman's dress doesn't even do the job, no amount of complaining will stop the behavior you deplore.

N.B. I expect this comment to be unpopular, which underscores my point. We (a) live in an environment where an essay like the OP gets upvoted and elicits sympathy from a bunch of mostly technical guys, (b) where women endure sexist comments from a bunch of mostly technical guys, and (c) a comment noting the contradiction inherent in (a) and (b) gets downvoted by a bunch of mostly technical guys. The problem is basically unfixable, at least by the suggested means; shooting the messenger won't help.

Re: "Lighten up"

#94
post #43

Thanks for this. I’m going to be more aware of these kind of things and more watchful to make sure I don’t contribute to this myself and more observant of those around me. Now, I have a question for the women here — sometimes I’ll hear a woman make the joke about belonging in the kitchen. Do you have insight into why that might happen sometimes and what the best sort of response would be?

I'm not a woman, but my response in the past has always been: "Jeez, I wouldn't even joke about that."

You can be friendly and still express disapproval.

Context does matter, women do have more latitude in making that kind of joke, but it still isn't something I like having reinforced (lots of people suck at context).

Why would they do it on-purpose/non-ironically/non-sarcastically?

I've also known women to do it thinking that it will help them fit in. To be one of the guys. It really sucks to be excluded.

Women can also behave badly just like men do. If you work in a sexist environment, you can pick up those attitudes and become tone-deaf. Maybe they don't realize how much it can hurt other women to reinforce that sort of idea.

Re: "Lighten up"

#95
post #75
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment makes you sound like you're 12 years old. The goal is not to get back at people. The onus isn't on her. She's the victim, not the problem.

[deleted]

Ah, we're playing the game of "her situation doesn't count because someone else, somewhere, is worse off".

Re: "Lighten up"

#96
post #75
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment makes you sound like you're 12 years old. The goal is not to get back at people. The onus isn't on her. She's the victim, not the problem.

[deleted]

[deleted]

Re: "Lighten up"

#97
post #83
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what I am learning from this thread is that this is an "untouchable" subject, in that if you do not naturally side with the person's allegations and white-knight for them, you are part of the problem.

Oh. Your proposed solution to sexual harassment or racial harassment or harassment in general was to tell the victim to "grow a thicker skin" That was what you wanted us to learn from your contributions to the thread. Thanks. It's pretty clear exactly who has the problem.

You should grow a thicker skin as well. Getting so riled up over HN comments isn't healthy :)

Re: "Lighten up"

#98
post #13

@kcunning - How do you contrast your desire to have a perfectly professional relationship with everyone you work with vs a desire to enjoy an office environment where you can joke around and have fun? While I understand your answer may well be, "Leave the jokes at home, Mr. Colbert. I'm here to code and make a paycheck." I would be sad if my relationship with my coworkers couldn't handle, let alone thrive upon, humor…

I would be sad if my relationship with my coworkers couldn't handle, let alone thrive upon, humorous interactions.

There is a big difference underneath the surface, though on the surface, many such incidents look like just "joking around." The difference has to do with social distance. If you feel an off-color remark is appropriate for someone you barely know, then I hate to tell you, but you're on one end of an asymmetric power relationship, and the other party has the short end of it.

It used to be, back in the 50's, men in the US felt entitled to join conversations with and sit at the same table with a pair of young women they didn't know and had just met. That sort of thing is a clear indication of the uneven power relationship. To really understand, you need to be on the "short" end, and more, you need to understand what it's like growing up with that constantly in the environment.

Yes, often one doesn't have bad intentions. But I'm explaining it to you now. Just be honest with yourself about social distance and "kidding." If you're really self aware, you may start to realize there's been a difference in social distance between off-color remarks to women vs. others. (African Americans, perhaps?)

Re: "Lighten up"

#99
post #87

You see, I have problem with posts like this. First I'm like - "Woah, I can't imagine someone would be so insensitive to make joke like this!" and get all fed up and upset. But then... then I freeze, because next example is something that I can imagine myself saying. "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" I... I'm at loss of words. I was trained during my teenage years, that it's coo…

Just being sincerely aware of it, imho, puts you in the right place. No-one expects you to be able to discard your upbringing, just to be able to critique it. The concept of noblesse oblige, I think, somewhat applies; if you're lucky enough to be born with privilege, use it for good (i.e. to eradicate that privilege).

Re: "Lighten up"

#100
My non-programmer friends and family are always bewildered when I tell them that I hope my daughter doesn't grow up to be a programmer. The reason why is because I'm afraid her life would be like the OP's. There is indeed a subtle sexism in our industry. That's why things like yesterday's Sqoot screwup happen so frequently.

Of course, every workplace is different and I'm sure there are plenty of places where women don't have to deal with the bullshit described in this article. However, they are far from the norm. I can see why the OP would want to leave the industry rather than be the person constantly reporting people to HR and lecturing them about proper behavior. It may be the right thing to do, but it's also extremely uncomfortable and just as likely to create an even more hostile working environment than before.

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