Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think it has to be immediate and public. That doesn't mean severe or disrespectful. Everyone has to do it, but it certainly should be set up from the top down that this is unacceptable and will stop. I take a page from the Results Only Work Environment: http://www.rowe.iambestbuy.com/sludge_busting.html
Maukdaddy says that "it depends on the type of personality you're dealing with," and I think that's very true with regards to immediate-and-public versus later-and-in-private. With many people, an embarrassing confrontation in front of the whole team will cause them to dig deeper, because their pride is on the line. The same person might respond more thoughtfully to a private expression of disapproval.
"Lighten up"
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Re: "Lighten up"
#92Outside of IT, nobody ever comments on low cut dresses? I am glad I don't have to deal with things like the ones mentioned in the article, just wanted to chime in and say that most programming jobs suck anyway. So it seems possible to me that the expression of the suckiness apparently took on some sexist form, that is not to say that the male colleagues don't suffer through crap in the same job. It is definitely poss…
No? I didn't think so. Me neither. So what are you really arguing about here?
She pointed out a lot of sexist bullshit she had to deal with. The low-cut-dress thing was just one of them. Are you now a little more alert to the fact that what you might have thought was an innocuous joke actually made a teammate feel like they have a target on their back? I am! I thought to myself, "wow, I can imagine people I've worked with in the past who would say something like that; holy shit, I might have even laughed!". Maybe you too? Then she did you a favor by speaking up.
It'd be good if people would stop expecting the Magna Carta from posts like this.
Re: "Lighten up"
#93The thing is, we live in a legal environment where she probably could go to HR and get him moved or fired for saying this. And yet, some men are still sexist jerks to women in the workplace. This suggests that all the blog-posting and HN-comment-hand-wringing in the world won't make a bit of difference.
Don't lighten up—accept. When being able to fire a guy for commenting on a woman's dress doesn't even do the job, no amount of complaining will stop the behavior you deplore.
N.B. I expect this comment to be unpopular, which underscores my point. We (a) live in an environment where an essay like the OP gets upvoted and elicits sympathy from a bunch of mostly technical guys, (b) where women endure sexist comments from a bunch of mostly technical guys, and (c) a comment noting the contradiction inherent in (a) and (b) gets downvoted by a bunch of mostly technical guys. The problem is basically unfixable, at least by the suggested means; shooting the messenger won't help.
Re: "Lighten up"
#94Thanks for this. I’m going to be more aware of these kind of things and more watchful to make sure I don’t contribute to this myself and more observant of those around me. Now, I have a question for the women here — sometimes I’ll hear a woman make the joke about belonging in the kitchen. Do you have insight into why that might happen sometimes and what the best sort of response would be?
You can be friendly and still express disapproval.
Context does matter, women do have more latitude in making that kind of joke, but it still isn't something I like having reinforced (lots of people suck at context).
Why would they do it on-purpose/non-ironically/non-sarcastically?
I've also known women to do it thinking that it will help them fit in. To be one of the guys. It really sucks to be excluded.
Women can also behave badly just like men do. If you work in a sexist environment, you can pick up those attitudes and become tone-deaf. Maybe they don't realize how much it can hurt other women to reinforce that sort of idea.
Re: "Lighten up"
#95Earlier quoted context omitted.
This comment makes you sound like you're 12 years old. The goal is not to get back at people. The onus isn't on her. She's the victim, not the problem.
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Re: "Lighten up"
#96Re: "Lighten up"
#97Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think what I am learning from this thread is that this is an "untouchable" subject, in that if you do not naturally side with the person's allegations and white-knight for them, you are part of the problem.
Oh. Your proposed solution to sexual harassment or racial harassment or harassment in general was to tell the victim to "grow a thicker skin" That was what you wanted us to learn from your contributions to the thread. Thanks. It's pretty clear exactly who has the problem.
Re: "Lighten up"
#98@kcunning - How do you contrast your desire to have a perfectly professional relationship with everyone you work with vs a desire to enjoy an office environment where you can joke around and have fun? While I understand your answer may well be, "Leave the jokes at home, Mr. Colbert. I'm here to code and make a paycheck." I would be sad if my relationship with my coworkers couldn't handle, let alone thrive upon, humor…
There is a big difference underneath the surface, though on the surface, many such incidents look like just "joking around." The difference has to do with social distance. If you feel an off-color remark is appropriate for someone you barely know, then I hate to tell you, but you're on one end of an asymmetric power relationship, and the other party has the short end of it.
It used to be, back in the 50's, men in the US felt entitled to join conversations with and sit at the same table with a pair of young women they didn't know and had just met. That sort of thing is a clear indication of the uneven power relationship. To really understand, you need to be on the "short" end, and more, you need to understand what it's like growing up with that constantly in the environment.
Yes, often one doesn't have bad intentions. But I'm explaining it to you now. Just be honest with yourself about social distance and "kidding." If you're really self aware, you may start to realize there's been a difference in social distance between off-color remarks to women vs. others. (African Americans, perhaps?)
Re: "Lighten up"
#99You see, I have problem with posts like this. First I'm like - "Woah, I can't imagine someone would be so insensitive to make joke like this!" and get all fed up and upset. But then... then I freeze, because next example is something that I can imagine myself saying. "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" I... I'm at loss of words. I was trained during my teenage years, that it's coo…
Re: "Lighten up"
#100Of course, every workplace is different and I'm sure there are plenty of places where women don't have to deal with the bullshit described in this article. However, they are far from the norm. I can see why the OP would want to leave the industry rather than be the person constantly reporting people to HR and lecturing them about proper behavior. It may be the right thing to do, but it's also extremely uncomfortable and just as likely to create an even more hostile working environment than before.