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How to Apologize

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Re: How to Apologize

#161

Post by rtperson »

cgoddard wrote: post #116
rtperson wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it is not a accepted selling point of professionals. Rather, it will get you in serious trouble in many professional environments. Not to defend Sqoot at all, but... um... booth babes? Every large trade show has them. They are there specifically to excite the hormones of the male professionals in attendance. Their use is as sexist as it is effective. Had Sqoot quietly hired a bunch of models to serve beer to the at…

Just because a form of sexism is pervasive doesn't mean it isn't also offensive and demeaning to people. Part of being professional and encouraging diversity is not promoting a frat-like or male-dominated business culture.

I completely agree. I was just pointing out that sexism of this nature had gone on for years without apparent protest. I was not defending the practice.

Re: How to Apologize

#162

Post by victork2 »

batista wrote: post #144
natep wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about whether hackathons should have female waitresses. It's about whether "women" should be listed as perks right under massages. And for what was supposed to be a professional event (in the eyes of its sponsors and potential audience at least), the answer is a clear "No." And regarding the slippery slope you tried to construct, I don't think there is one, unless you are a moral relativist. Anyone that thin…

It's not about whether hackathons should have female waitresses. It's about whether "women" should be listed as perks right under massages. Only women are not listed as percs. The PRESENCE of beautiful women serving beer is used as a perc. It's not like you BUY these women or use them as slaves... In other words, not very different from a Hooters. And for what was supposed to be a professional event (in the eyes of i…

Thank you, your messages are one of a kind compared to the heavy rain of "holier than thou" blog posts on that matter.

As a non american(coming from a more egalitarian society, or at least a less objectifying society about women) this is for me a totally ridiculous issue. I'm pretty sure the same people that are being so offended by that small sentence have been in the last months to a Strip Club or a bar with prettier than average waitresses.

Some users talk about professional events and that it should not have been like that, go one day to any tech/arm/car/comic con expo and tell me the hostess are not "hot" and chosen because 1) they are women 2) They are good looking.

What a non-issue and HN front page was flooded with that today...

Re: How to Apologize

#163

Post by petercooper »

mistermann wrote: post #56
samth wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For instance, I might have an opinion that we should bring back slavery. A totally offensive opinion, yes, but dammit, I'm entitled to have it. I think this is confusing two very different things. You are "entitled" to have this opinion in that (a) you shouldn't be locked in prison for stating this opinion and (b) I am not allowed to beat you up for having this opinion. However, that opinion is wrong . You should s…

> but the root problem is the sexism, not the ad copy. I agree it was a very sexist thing to write. It makes me wonder though: 1. Which is worse, hiring an all female serving staff (perhaps wearing uniforms that would be considered particularly attractive to heterosexual males), or acknowledging that you have done this by writing about it in your invitations? Is it inappropriate (always and everywhere) to hire only a…

But advertising it, or at least they way they did it, strikes me as offensive, but I don't know why.

Here's my take. Things that are implicitly accepted as being the true state of things can become offensive when they are shared or explicitly shared. You can pretty much assume everyone you meet poops or masturbates, that's not offensive. But if we deliberately express details of these activities in public, it then becomes inappropriate or even offensive.

Likewise, we all have opinions on people's characteristics, conscious or not but we accept these things as quirks of being animals. What makes us decent and human, however, is keeping unpleasant or uncontrollable thoughts and opinions to ourselves, and if we start sharing them explicitly, it becomes inappropriate.

Re: How to Apologize

#164

Post by petercooper »

CoffeeDregs wrote: post #107
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #11

This is good, and I like it, but I wonder if we're not painting this in too much black-and-white. It's certainly possible to feel sorry that you expressed your opinions in ways that others found offensive, without feeling sorry you had those opinions. In this case you are really sorry about your choice of words, not the intent of your message. That's okay. It doesn't have to be one way or the other. I'm not going to…

You're a very well regarded HNer, so I'm not happy writing a critique of your comment [ >I very well may be sorry that I brought [slavery] >up on MLK day, but I'm not really sorry for >feeling the way I do You can't apologize for making someone feel badly about something if you still hold that something to be true. Using your MLK/slavery example, why are you apologizing? You are apologizing because you empathize with…

You can't apologize for making someone feel badly about something if you still hold that something to be true.

You can express empathy with the other person though. And in English, at least, this is commonly done using apologetic language, "I am sorry that you feel that way and I understand that you are upset" etc.

It is possible to totally disagree with someone but still feel empathy for their reaction to your opinion. As such, you certainly can "apologize" for making someone feel bad even if you don't find the cause justifies it. You're just not apologizing for your opinion.

Re: How to Apologize

#165

Post by natep »

victork2 wrote: post #162
batista wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about whether hackathons should have female waitresses. It's about whether "women" should be listed as perks right under massages. Only women are not listed as percs. The PRESENCE of beautiful women serving beer is used as a perc. It's not like you BUY these women or use them as slaves... In other words, not very different from a Hooters. And for what was supposed to be a professional event (in the eyes of i…

Thank you, your messages are one of a kind compared to the heavy rain of "holier than thou" blog posts on that matter. As a non american(coming from a more egalitarian society, or at least a less objectifying society about women) this is for me a totally ridiculous issue. I'm pretty sure the same people that are being so offended by that small sentence have been in the last months to a Strip Club or a bar with pretti…

So, female participation in the tech industry is at or near 50% in your country? No women steer clear of the industry because of sexism (real or perceived)? I would like to know which country this is, so I can find out what you're doing right.

Re: How to Apologize

#166

Post by xsmasher »

vu0tran wrote: post #103

Am I the only one that thought their comment was in good humor? Maybe my sense of humor is twisted, but having attended many hackathons, I got a good chuckle as it was obvious that many of them turn out to be sausage fests. I felt this comment poked fun at this.

I feel the comment contributes to an all-male, boys-club atmosphere. I don't see anything that pokes fun at that atmosphere.

Re: How to Apologize

#167

Post by maco »

petercooper wrote: post #164
CoffeeDregs wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're a very well regarded HNer, so I'm not happy writing a critique of your comment [ >I very well may be sorry that I brought [slavery] >up on MLK day, but I'm not really sorry for >feeling the way I do You can't apologize for making someone feel badly about something if you still hold that something to be true. Using your MLK/slavery example, why are you apologizing? You are apologizing because you empathize with…

You can't apologize for making someone feel badly about something if you still hold that something to be true. You can express empathy with the other person though. And in English, at least, this is commonly done using apologetic language, "I am sorry that you feel that way and I understand that you are upset" etc. It is possible to totally disagree with someone but still feel empathy for their reaction to your opini…

You can express empathy with the other person though. And in English, at least, this is commonly done using apologetic language, "I am sorry that you feel that way and I understand that you are upset" etc.

No, "I'm sorry I made you feel that way" or "I'm sorry I hurt you."

Re: How to Apologize

#168

Post by natep »

batista wrote: post #144
natep wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about whether hackathons should have female waitresses. It's about whether "women" should be listed as perks right under massages. And for what was supposed to be a professional event (in the eyes of its sponsors and potential audience at least), the answer is a clear "No." And regarding the slippery slope you tried to construct, I don't think there is one, unless you are a moral relativist. Anyone that thin…

It's not about whether hackathons should have female waitresses. It's about whether "women" should be listed as perks right under massages. Only women are not listed as percs. The PRESENCE of beautiful women serving beer is used as a perc. It's not like you BUY these women or use them as slaves... In other words, not very different from a Hooters. And for what was supposed to be a professional event (in the eyes of i…

Yes, women as sexy/sexual objects were listed as a perk. No, it's not as bad as slavery, and no one is saying it is. I'm not sponsoring hooters, and I've never been to one. Am I supposed to protest hooters now in order to have a legitimate claim against API Jam in your mind?

The message I'm getting from you is that you care more about group A than group B. Group A is all of the poor men that would like to see beautiful women while at API Jam and don't care about how that would make their fellow professionals feel. Group B is all of the women that want to go to a hackathon as professional coders, and not have to worry about people from group A. Will people from group A show up to any event? Yes, but they shouldn't feel that their sexism is welcome. I think group A has enough privilege, and they can do without this one perk for the sake of group B.

Re: How to Apologize

#169

Post by Tichy »

orblivion wrote: post #10

I'm a bit torn on this whole issue, I wonder if somebody could give me some perspective. There are two conflicting things I don't like here. In the first place, I don't like when people are so sensitive that there's no room for a harmless joke. In most cases I really would say "oh come on lighten up." On the other hand, among us computer programmers, there's so much social ineptness (and perhaps outright disrespect f…

I don't live in the US, and the city I live in is plastered with posters advertising parties. They all advertise with attractive women on the cover. Not that different from a Hackathon advertising with attractive female waiters, if you think about it. I think it was poor style, but I also don't like the mobbing aspect of the "apologize or die" movement.

Re: How to Apologize

#170

Post by benohear »

My biggest problem is that the joke wasn't particularly funny.

I grew up on Hara-Kiri, Reiser, Vuillemin and co, and later Derek and Clive. They are all way, way more offensive, but they are really funny and also quite aware that they are going to piss people off.

What I find disturbing in both the joke and the apology is the surprise that people would get upset. Basically that's it's perfectly normal.

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