How to Apologize • Hacker News Board

Re: How to Apologize

#101

Post by rdl » Wed, Mar 21, 2012, 3:03 PM UTC

plusbryan wrote: post #100

jacobian wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please read the whole context: https://img.skitch.com/20120320-fmsc5mciy8e7n3nxhakmegxxg9.p... "Women" are being presented in a list of "great perks" -- along with "food trucks", "top shelf booze", and "dark chocolate". This is pretty much a textbook example of objectification. This sort of objectification and othering is part of what keeps women out of tech, and that's a loss to everyone. More women joining our comm…

Finally some context! Without the context of the list above, I kept reading "Women:" not as a perk in a list, but as a declarative. I kept wondering why people could be offended by them saying that women were permitted beer. Now, I see.

I am somewhat more offended by their horrible spelling and grammar.

I would have probably written the whole thing off as a troll (high level of promised services, amateur spelling, unknown startup, and overt sexism. Maybe one of those things could get a slight pass)

Re: How to Apologize

#102

Post by tim_buck » Wed, Mar 21, 2012, 3:32 PM UTC

hcayless wrote: post #70

meterplech wrote: post #31

The first thing I thought when reading this article is that it's a shame the author chose this topic as his way of framing the post. If you remove the focus completely from the potentially flame-war issue this is based on there is some great advice in this article. Specifically: "When I worked at Lulu, Bob Young used to say that whenever you screw up, it's actually a tremendous opportunity to win a customer's loyalty…

I framed the post around Sqoot's apology because that was what gave me the idea. I didn't intend to slap them around any more than they have been. It's just an example of what I think was meant to be a genuine apology that fell totally flat. But yes, my central point is that when someone (or the whole Internet) is pissed off at you, you have their attention and a chance to turn things around, if you have the right go…

I for one appreciate that you provided the advice. Anything that helps others get along without being divisive is a very good thing, so please don't absorb any of the criticism from comments here.

Re: How to Apologize

#103

Post by vu0tran » Wed, Mar 21, 2012, 3:35 PM UTC

Am I the only one that thought their comment was in good humor? Maybe my sense of humor is twisted, but having attended many hackathons, I got a good chuckle as it was obvious that many of them turn out to be sausage fests. I felt this comment poked fun at this.

Re: How to Apologize

#104

Post by batista » Wed, Mar 21, 2012, 3:43 PM UTC

samth wrote: post #32

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #11

This is good, and I like it, but I wonder if we're not painting this in too much black-and-white. It's certainly possible to feel sorry that you expressed your opinions in ways that others found offensive, without feeling sorry you had those opinions. In this case you are really sorry about your choice of words, not the intent of your message. That's okay. It doesn't have to be one way or the other. I'm not going to…

> For instance, I might have an opinion that we should bring back slavery. A totally offensive opinion, yes, but dammit, I'm entitled to have it. I think this is confusing two very different things. You are "entitled" to have this opinion in that (a) you shouldn't be locked in prison for stating this opinion and (b) I am not allowed to beat you up for having this opinion. However, that opinion is wrong . You should s…

I think this is confusing two very different things. You are "entitled" to have this opinion in that (a) you shouldn't be locked in prison for stating this opinion and (b) I am not allowed to beat you up for having this opinion. However, that opinion is wrong. You should stop having it, and if you express it at work you will and should be fired.

So one is only allowed to have the "right" opinions?

And who gets to judge that? If it's the majority, then what if a poll showed that most Americans are against, say, abortion or gay rights? (Or most of Utah residents, at a local level). If it's just some minority with power (the government, the PC police, etc), why should they get to say it instead of the majority?

So, you're walking a very fine line here. He is entitled to think whatever, include slavery or the annihilation of mankind, and people should not only not put him in prison for it, but not even fire him for it.

They can disagree all they want with him for it, though. Now, if he tries to put his slavery ideals to practice, that's a totally different matter.

I think this is exactly analogous to this case. Sqoot could have held a successful hackathon if they didn't display their sexism in their ad copy, but the root problem is the sexism, not the ad copy. That's why the apology rubs people the wrong way.

Case in point. I am from a different country, and we would probably laugh at the very idea of the apology, not on the "sexism".

Why something that's ok for, say, a casino or a sports bar (female waitresses) is bad for a hackathon? Because a coding marathon should be for both sexes? Well, aren't casinos for both sexes too? How come they get to have women waitresses? Also, who said the organizers of this PARTICULAR hackathon want it to be?

Is it that they SHOULD want it to be? Is the message that one cannot organize an event the way he likes it, provided he doesn't do anything illegal?

Re: How to Apologize

#105

Post by meterplech » Wed, Mar 21, 2012, 3:46 PM UTC

hcayless wrote: post #70

meterplech wrote: post #31

The first thing I thought when reading this article is that it's a shame the author chose this topic as his way of framing the post. If you remove the focus completely from the potentially flame-war issue this is based on there is some great advice in this article. Specifically: "When I worked at Lulu, Bob Young used to say that whenever you screw up, it's actually a tremendous opportunity to win a customer's loyalty…

I framed the post around Sqoot's apology because that was what gave me the idea. I didn't intend to slap them around any more than they have been. It's just an example of what I think was meant to be a genuine apology that fell totally flat. But yes, my central point is that when someone (or the whole Internet) is pissed off at you, you have their attention and a chance to turn things around, if you have the right go…

I wasn't knocking you at all- sorry if it seemed that way! I was merely saying it's unfortunate that the discussion is going to focus too much on what made you think of this post (this particularly hot-button issue around women in tech), instead of the post itself, in which you included some really useful and practical advice for everyone. Proper apologies to win customer loyalty is a huge and important idea.

Re: How to Apologize

#106

Post by orblivion » Wed, Mar 21, 2012, 3:54 PM UTC

theorique wrote: post #86

orblivion wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the women need to come back and make fun of these people for being shitty at humor. EDIT: I dunno, I'd just hate to have to resort to being uptight as a solution. Plus it could backfire.

Thing is, it's not as easy when you already feel a bit marginal. Women are definitely the minority at tech events so 'fighting back' in this way takes a lot of guts. I try to put myself in the mindset as follows: I'm a white guy. If I were in a club that had 90% black patrons and some people were making jokes about 'whitey', I don't know if I'd want to speak up in that environment. Even if the jokes are not intention…

Great point. I think it might help if we backed them up in doing this.

Re: How to Apologize

#107

Post by CoffeeDregs » Wed, Mar 21, 2012, 3:58 PM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #11

This is good, and I like it, but I wonder if we're not painting this in too much black-and-white. It's certainly possible to feel sorry that you expressed your opinions in ways that others found offensive, without feeling sorry you had those opinions. In this case you are really sorry about your choice of words, not the intent of your message. That's okay. It doesn't have to be one way or the other. I'm not going to…

You're a very well regarded HNer, so I'm not happy writing a critique of your comment [

    >I very well may be sorry that I brought [slavery] 
    >up on MLK day, but I'm not really sorry for 
    >feeling the way I do

You can't apologize for making someone feel badly about something if you still hold that something to be true. Using your MLK/slavery example, why are you apologizing? You are apologizing because you empathize with the black/white person you offended with your statement. You cannot do so if you still hold slavery to be good; if you maintain your belief in slavery as you say this not-apology statement, then you are placating or mollifying or appeasing.

    >We need to make sure we are not 
    >trying to tell people how to think.

You follow this with suggesting something like Socratic-methodizing them, which is basically a mechanism to get people to think your way.

    >it's not okay for a mob to dictate to you 
    >what your policies should be

Maybe it's not "ok" (whatever that might mean), but it's reality: see law, ethics, morals, common values, cliques, villages, associations, "shunning" or any other "mob" defined construct/action... I agree with a version of your statement that has additional nuance (involving power), but, as written, the statement rejects human mechanics.

Re: How to Apologize

#108

Post by orblivion » Wed, Mar 21, 2012, 4:05 PM UTC

Duff wrote: post #82

orblivion wrote: post #10

I'm a bit torn on this whole issue, I wonder if somebody could give me some perspective. There are two conflicting things I don't like here. In the first place, I don't like when people are so sensitive that there's no room for a harmless joke. In most cases I really would say "oh come on lighten up." On the other hand, among us computer programmers, there's so much social ineptness (and perhaps outright disrespect f…

I'm a guy who in more of an IT role with alot of women (probably a little less than half the people here) -- so I guess I come from a weird perspective. My sister is an engineer/designer, so I've heard her perspective on this as well. The issue with this kind of behavior is that it intimidates and/or repels professional women. It doesn't set an appropriate tone. If you were a woman with a degree in CS who was potenti…

> It's not a matter of bringing in the "PC police". It's about respect.

The distinction between these points is important to me, I'm glad you bring it up. I know I've been somewhat contradictory on this, but I'll say I agree that the given joke, as it stands, is not respectful. If it were a guy's gathering, I think it would be ok, but it's an open invitation.

Since I've been saying that the problem is about bad taste in humor, I've been trying to come up with a better way of making the same joke (if we are to take them on their word that this joke was really about being a male dominated field). What do you think of this variation (not to say it's that much more funny):

"Women: Yes, we aim to make a welcoming atmosphere for women who want to participate in our hackathon. (And for those men still afraid of getting out-programmed by a girl, we've hired an all-female event staff to serve you cold beer.)"

Granted it maybe sends a bit of a double-message still, I think something more along these lines could make it clear that we mean no real disrespect, but still keep it from getting too uptight.

Re: How to Apologize

#109

Post by samth » Wed, Mar 21, 2012, 4:06 PM UTC

kyberias wrote: post #44

samth wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For instance, I might have an opinion that we should bring back slavery. A totally offensive opinion, yes, but dammit, I'm entitled to have it. I think this is confusing two very different things. You are "entitled" to have this opinion in that (a) you shouldn't be locked in prison for stating this opinion and (b) I am not allowed to beat you up for having this opinion. However, that opinion is wrong . You should s…

> However, that opinion is wrong. You should stop having it, and if you express it at work you will and should be fired. I think this opinion is wrong. If one expresses his opinion about slavery, he should not be fired. Now that you had this wrong opinion about opinions, should you be fired? From work? From Hacker News? Anywhere?

Really? If someone at your job expressed the "opinion" that you, personally, should be chained and sold as property, and that they should be allowed to beat, rape, and murder you as they saw fit, that would be acceptable behavior at your job?

Because that's what the OP was suggesting, except that they used the umbrella term "slavery" to refer to it.

Re: How to Apologize

#110

Post by CoffeeDregs » Wed, Mar 21, 2012, 4:09 PM UTC

I was fairly surprised to read a decent explanation of how to apologize. I took a fairly wide ranging linguistics class a few years ago and an apology was explained as follows:

    * An apology is not something you "say"; 
      it is a *commitment* to the following:
    1) You explain that you understand the situation you 
       produced and why you did it.
    2) You understand how it harmed the other party.
    3) You explain how you will prevent it happening again.

Again, an apology is a commitment. If you don't commit, then you're just saying stuff and are not apologizing. And if you try to commit without explaining the 3 parts, then the commitment is worthless.

Sqoot seems to have failed on all 3 requirements and so their commitment is worthless. For the most part, they merely described what happened, which everyone already knew.